Intro, and Tranny ??'s

[Mac_Muz]

Hello all, I am Mac.. Muz is because all Mac's have been taken about everywhere and I shoot muzzeloaders. I am called Mac in real life, short for McKay. My first name is Bill, which gets me into all sorts of problems at historical events when 30 other guys named Bill are in ear shot.

I live in Ossipee NH.

My truck is a 84' K-10 1/2 ton 4x4 with working auto hubs no less.

I bought this in 87' and used it hard up to 99 for everything. I broke the 700 R4 tranny in 99 plowing snow. The planetary carrier was smashed in large hunks, and the gears were stripped of most teeth.

At that time I bought a rebuilt 700 R4 and installed that myself, and it was fine untill this past Monday 12/8/03.

I am not sure what has happened, so if you will, please bear with me.

I had plowed where I live which is a rather large area and rough. I got stuck and rocked the truck out as is done... I heard a bang... but was able to do the work.

The next day the 8th I was asked to help plow another very long and very rugged road way into a house set way back in the woods. I got stuck there a few times but there was another truck to pull me out. I had the occasion to get my self un-stuck however more than once.. I heard 2 bangs then.. One was a broken plow stop I think as it was there and then it was gone..

A plow stop to me is the guide under a Fisher plow, which is welded on and the "A" frame runs in..

From that place it is maybe 18 miles home, and just before I got home, the engine raced up but I lost power.

This was like going from dry pavement to glass ice.. or as if the torque converter lost the bolts to the flex plates, and was scraping the flex plate for power.... No noises though..

The truck will just barely move at 4,000 rpm. I heard no noises, and there is no loss of oil.

I have a aux air cooler on the tranny which is routed from the tranny to the radiator then the air cooler.. I change as much tranny fluid as I can spring and fall like clock work.

Due to other problems I have not yet dropped the pan, and or dropped the inspection plate.

I hope either the bolts to the torque converter are gone, or the TC has failed, and that the 700 R4 has not become history...

The engine is not the original 305 now, as when it was worn out I came on a odd 350 4 bolt main with dip stick hips cast on both sides of the block with a matching oil pan, and so for kicks I have 2 engine oil dip sticks.

Finally:

My question is IF the 700 R4 is dead, I would choose to replace it this time with something else, and do not know what is best, and or what fits.

I would appreciate advise on this.

Some locals in 99' said the 700 R4 was not a good tranny, and I should have replaced it with a THM 350, while others said I should use a THM 400.

I think the THM 350 is a 3 speed tranny, and have no idea what the 400 is....

Are those options? Are there better options?

Also the transfer case is the original "New Process" I forget the number off hand.

This truck was not built to be a plow truck and has more springs for a camper, and high gears which if I recall are 2.73 to 1..

It has moved tons of snow since I have owned it and I have not been able to find lower gears... But that is another topic..

Thank you for any advise...... Mac

[Chuck Smith]

Well Mac, Wyldman and John DiMartino can tell you much more about the trans trouble. I will tell you what I do know.

Your transfer case is the NP208. Not a bad case. Not as strong as the cast iron models (NP 205 gear driven part time 4wd, NP203 chain driven, fulltime 4wd). Still a good case though, GM used them on models up to 10K GVWR.

The TH700R4 had problems in the earlier years, though it debuted in Chevy trucks in 1981, so I am not sure if the one you have is one of the earlier ones or not.....

2.73's are a little high for plowing, but plowing in 4wd Low should help a little.

The TH350 and the TH400 are both 3 speed transmissions. The TH400 is stronger, and also more rare.

~Chuck

[Alan]

Those loud bangs just might be those wonderful automatic hubs unlocking and then locking back up under power. I've seen that happen and it's so quick you don't really feel it happening. That could have some bad effects on the transmission.

And if you lost the flexplate bolts I doubt it would move at all. I had a set drop out in one of my trucks and when the last one left it was dead stop time. It made some pretty neat noises when one of the bolts would get caught between the ring gear and bell housing. Kind of the metallic equivalent of wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[Mac_Muz]

Thanks for the replies.. Pending weather tomorrow the trany gets a hard look see...

The orginal lasted from 87 to 99.... I bought the 84' truck in 87 so I know that history.. I can't tell if there was any tranny installed before that time.

When that tranny went it made noises, really scarey noises, BANG crunch grind, and etc etc.. The truck still moved, and I must have driven it knowing things were as bad as it gets over 100 miles and more... it was till able to go when I pulled it, and tore it down. I was astonished that it could work at all as large carrier pieces fell out once the front pump was out of the way!!!!!

This is different.. I realize that if the T converter bolts fell out, that it would feel like what I feel, and hoped to get the idea over better... I know if that occured I would hear the flex plate rubbing the T converter facing...

But I hear nothing, and get only a slight ability to move. No harsh apply when shifting from park. I have a wee bit o slop in the rear end, and can hear a gear slap normally... My U joints are fine..

The nut at the pinion gear could use a wee bit o tightening..

I think the transfer case is ok....

My hope is that the filter pick up fell off... but even then I would think the truck would move better...

My next best hope is a T conveter failure, but I have my doubts. Mac

[John DiMartino]

Mac, you need to pull the pan and se what your working with.If its internal you more than likely fried it already. IMO the TH700R4 is a great plowing transmission. I think its stronger than the th350 for powing and not much behind the mighty 400 for plowing. Id stick with it for plowing,but you do what you feels best.

[Mac_Muz]

Are there any in truck test I can do?

If the carrier is not in pieces and I know then that you do hear grinding, which I don't, what else can be wrong and tested in truck?

My Idea of testing are see to it the torque converter bolts are there (But I hear no scraping)

Some how test the front pump for pressure???

Drain and drop the pan to see what I can see.....

I was doing almost 50 mph when this happened, so I must have been in D or 3rd range.

I have no 1st, Reverse, and seemingly no 2nd and probably no OD.

I have a air cooled tranny cooler which is after the radiator cooler, and I did not smell that hot smell.

Several times I allowed the truck to rest running. The plowing was first snow and not that difficult but the snow was deep, as it was a double storm...

No excuses, just hoping a hint will get thru some how, and then someone that knows better might indicate what else might be wrong.

Like I said I must wonder if it is a bad carrier as there is no sounds of grinding.

If I had the clunk when I shifted into D at first I would think the splines were gone on the drive shaft(s) I lost a spline on the forward drive shaft long ago just after I purchased the truck.

Today is rain, but rain or no rain I must go see....

If it does turn out to be a bashed carrier I will say so.... If that is the case I would have to say the carrier is a weak part.

I work hard, but am not into abuse. A tranny should be able to hold up to getting stuck and coming out of being stuck rapidly to my way of thinking. Mac

[John DiMartino]

You can peform a pressure test,as long as you have a universal pressure guage.You'll need a book to do this. I think you lost a clutch/seal because it still moves a tiny bit,when you break a shaft or a planet/hard part,usually it doewsn not move at all,and the pump will pick up the schrapnel and youll hear the pump grinding and what not.

[Mac_Muz]

John, I could buy that diagnosis. That of a internal leak, which is what it feels like to me..

I have a Haynes Book on just THM 200 R4, 700 r4, 350, and 400's in hand. I am attempting to digest the info.

No doubt the tranny will need to come out after the initicial inspection for repairs. I would like to be able to discuss with a wee bit of knowledge with a real tech when that happens.

If I can still use this tranny I will.. If I must replace it, I am not sure what I will do... I might go with a stick shift, which I don't really want for plowing, but if a std trannies are any tougher so be it...

I know it is only a mere half ton truck, but many places I go are only so big... and a large truck can't get there well.. Thanks for the suggestion as I had not even thought of that one..

I think I might have the pressure gauge on hand.. maybe??? Mac

[John DiMartino]

Mac,the 700r4 is plenty tough for what your doing with it.If its built right and the Vb is good.i am running right now a 91 GMC wit hte 700r4 with over 100K on it,its towed and plowed all its life.I am pushign an 8'6" Western V plow,and carrying a 1 yard spreader,this is no light truck.ANd it gets run ahrd. the trans is original it could iuse a freshign im sure,but its workign fine.My other truck i just sold was an 89GMC2500,again with the 700r4,it had 160k when i sold it,all original i pushed commerically 3-4 yrs with it,a 7.5 fisher with wings. No troubleat all with it.All i did to both was install a med size aux cooler and service the trans evey season no matter how few miles on it.

[wyldman]

Welcome to the site Mac.

If you do need to pull the trans out for repairs,I'd stick with the 700R4.Good all around tranny,not to expensive to rebuild,and no swapping or modifying stuff to make another tranny fit.Sometimes the cost of adapters,and other crossmember and driveshaft mods,are more than just rebuilding what you have.

If you want to check the convertor bolts,you don't have to drop the inspection cover to do so.Just fire the truck up,and insert a piece of small wire straight up into the weep hole on the inspection cover.It will go straight up and touch the convertor.If the convertor is spinning,you will feel it.If the convertor is spinning,the convertor bolts are OK.

Just be careful,and make sure the truck is in park,brakes on,and wheels chocked.

[wyldman]

Forgot to mention.........I have the Factory GM service manual with all the tests\pressures and stuff for your 700R4,so if you need any info,let me know.

[Mac_Muz]

Does this match... My problem my work... So I type...

Haynes specs"

No park psi given all tests at 1,000 rpm brake applied.
Neutral 55 to 75 psi
Low or D2 160 to 190"
Drive 55 to 75"
Reverse 85 to 140psi

No Over Drive given

Curiously a caution is given as "Do not exceed 2 minutes running time."

Being so close to idle speed why is that? I know a higher RPM stall test heats up things fast but at this speed? Mac

[Mac_Muz]

Up date:

I have been able to get the truck at 2,500 rpm to back up 100+ feet, then go forward 300 feet, even up a hill apx 20 feet, again reversing into a garage where the weather is better..

I hear nothing unusual. No more testing yet, but soon the pan will be dropped..

I hope the filter sucked into itself or something in that order.

The Haynes book is not clear as to the function of the oil pump in the front housing.

I am taking a guess that this pump and anything before it might be the problem.

If I am not in error the T converter only supplies torque for power to move, while the oil pump supplies pressure for bands, and clutches. In my set up the band do not apply in 1st and reverse.

I am rather confused about now, and this was not expected at all... I need to be told how these oil pumps and T converters apply power and to what I guess.

A bit of detail would be appreciated...

I was a foreign car tech for a number of years, but I never dealt with auto trannies there... Mac

[ratlover]

You can get a th350 that will bolt directly into your set up but you need to have an adapter that goes between the case and the trany but it will require no mods to the shafts. You also need to make sure you have the correct spline on the output shaft. The latter 700's were better but they still aint the best trany. With a few cheap mods like a vet servo that will help OD live a and transgo shift kit with a proper rebuild the 700 will live fine. I still think a 350 is more stout even in stock form and it is very cheap to build one up. If OD isnt a real concern I would probably go with a 350 but its more dependent on your application. A 400 is the best in terms of beef but it would take a bit more to swap one in.

[Mac_Muz]

Well apparently the tranny is not a basket case like my first one became. It appears as a hydralic blockage to me at this time.

I can't see the reverse clutch and the 1st gear clutch which are separte acting the same way with out a common problem.

So I have changed to the idea of a repair from a switching of types of tranny's.

I am new here, and did not want to get into that my wife and I are both laid off, and seeking work, and so $$ are very tight.

I need to find the solution that makes the truck work, and as inexpensively as possible just now. Winter is on and I make a few dollars plowing. I stand to loose my accounts, and my own drive as well.. I was in panic mode, and still am but with better info.

What I need is power flow info.. I need a good diagnostic explaination so a proper fix can be made.

I just ate and will go see about a psi testing, and then drop that pan. Mac

[ratlover]

yes the pump circulates the fluid and applies the pressure to the bands and to everything else. You can run a trany with no TC(although its a bit tricky to stop or start ;) )

Proper fluid level hot? If its not a pluged filter or a leaking filter/dropped filter or the like then it sounds like you nuked it bad. Correct the band aint applied in 1rst and it seems to be pissed of in every gear? so its not one band or clutch pack. Most times 700's will burn out the OD(dont ever tow or drive with a heavy load in OD with a 700. JMO and experience, a plow hanging off the front would constitute a load so dont buzz down the highway with your plow on in OD.)

Or maybe you are sucking air from your cooler? Is the fluis bubly after its been running/acting like this?

[ratlover]

if you are going to go about a repair your self talk to these guys at www.hptransparts.com or thier other site of www.bulkparts.com

I have the haynes and it kinda sucks in comparison to a book i bought from them that is from ATSG and thier site is listed in the book as www.atsgmiami.com and www.transonline.com.

The guys at hptrans were very helpfull to me, I assume they are still there but its been awile since i talked to em

[ratlover]

and according to my manual, line pressures are highly dependent on the actual modle you have.....they also show with full TV and the like....wich reminds me.....hows your TV cable and its adjustment?

[Mac_Muz]

Ratlover, I plow only in low range and usualy in drive there which seems low enough. This time though since the snow was deep but fairly light I was in as low as it goes...

I never plow in 4 high...

I never pull loads in OD..

This just happened with no warning at all...

Today I droppped fluid only from a drain I installed in the pan.

The fluid looked fine and I used a paint filter to catch stuff...

There was no stuff to be caught, but the fluid had a burnt smell just the same.

My luck as of late is consistant, and my floor jack refused to work.

So I spent the time going to NAPA and getting that oil and fixing the jack. With the rain and the fog things are down to a minimum slog here...

Tomorrow the pan comes down, and I will find what ever I find, and I hope I find a reason there....

I have seen far worse looking ATF before in other trannies which still worked... It was the right color, but since it sat for a few days no foaming was visable..

I am sure the system got hot. As it turns out I have no pressure gadge, so that test is out....

The TC turns the pump right? If that is so then it still could be a bad TC, but how to tell even when out I don't know......??

I have never attempted a repair on these tranny's. I was going to in 99', but when I saw the smashed case, no attempt was possible. That tranny was a total wreck.

Probably all I can attempt is minor repairs.... I can afford a new filter and the ATF to run and dump ever few days for a flush..

I was able to get the other tranny apart with out the special tools, but I saw right off those tools would be a big help re-installing parts especaily the seal protectors.

I was never this type of a tech... if this was a standard tranny I would have a far better chance as I havew done some of that along with engine overhauls.

In the late 70' and upto the mid 80's I could swap out a Volvo clutch in 45 minutes, but this stuff is a different game to me...

I suppose with a few classes things might be different.... Thanks for thew words of wisdom.... Mac

[Mac_Muz]

Still no idea what is wrong, but I have the idea the TC failed.

It appears the tangs on the TC fit into the pump, and so is a direct pump drive.

So if that is correct the TC is slipping, or the pump is not building pressure.

I have fond a fairly clean filter, and while the ATF looks ok, it smells burnt.There is almost no debris in the pan, and a painters filter did not catch a thing.

At this point I have no choice but to drop the tranny and send it out.. Mac

[ratlover]

One way to do a flush is to yank the inlet and outlet of the cooler lines and stick the outlet into a emty bucket and the inlet into a pail of fresh ATF. Turn on the truck and leave it in P and the trany will pump out the old and suck in the new....continue till it pukes clean. A helper is a big help so they can turn on and off the truck and you can concentrate on not letting it run dry or start dumping on the ground. Dont be supprised though that it makes things worse, generaly if a trany is 1/2 nuked a flush will finish it off. But we will all cross our fingers for ya. :)

You plow in low and dont put a load in OD, you are definatly doing all you can for it, although those freeway gears really dont help it.

Yes the TC does spin the pump

You can pick up a cheapie gauge nor not much but it needs to be able to handle a bit over 100#'s

The early 700's were particularly bad and they did do some improvements especially to the pumps in the latter years. If you do a rebuild talk to the hptrans parts guys over the phone or email......dont just get parts for a 84 since it will cary the less desirable parts. The book I mentioned is very good and will give you an idea if you can tackle it or not. I'd let you barrow it but by the time you pay shipping and all that you might as well have bought it. I've only had one 700 go south so I'm not to up on diagnosing and such and most of my info comes from dealing with that pos in my 83. I did decide not to rebuild it and just stick a built 350 in its place.

[Mac_Muz]

I will be turning this over to someone competent once the tranny is out... Can't say I trust someone I have not met much though..

A price of 600 for a going over and a different TC is the est so far.. I will be stressing Heavy Duty parts and saying snow plow a lot.

I have to figure out where to get the $$. Lay offs after lay offs have hurt here... I am 52 and I figure if I work till about the year 2099 I might be free and clear. Oh well eh... Mac

[ratlover]

I would recomend puting a corvet servo in there(fairly cheap) since it will help OD live quite a bit and a transgo shift improving kit for 80$ or so. A HD sungear shell is also a good investment at 50$ or so.

I think 87 got the better updated pump??? And should be looked into.

Transgo kits rock.

IMO always put a new converter in when puting a new trany in. It sounds like you are doing this but I just figured I would mention it.

Also when installing be very carefull about your TV cable adjustment on the 700's and make sure you have the converter all the way in when installing them. You can F things up bad if not.

Good luck

[Mac_Muz]

I will record that info to Print... I have installed this type tranny once... This very one back in 99' I had some problems with that TV cable. I think what was done then was hold the throttle wide open and stick a screw driver into the side of the ratchet gizzmo, but with the time factor and doing that once I might be wrong.

I am glad you mentioned that cable as I have 6 bolts more to go and down it comes... I had to leave to assist a friend and lost my light... I came back in dark and have un-done all but that cable as I didn't see it, and those 6 bolts.. All the bolts that is on the bell housing... A jack is under the tranny now so it is not hanging..

A new or a rebuilt TC will go in... I will flush the coolers as best I can with air... Where the truck is I can reach with air so long as the lines don't freeze.

The Haynes book does not get into spec's on each clutch plate thickness.. and is a semi educational book I guess.. The more I read in it the more questions I get. It covers some theory but does not single out any one of four trannies....

Off Topic:

I may place a question in Ford trucks section as my friend has a just bought 85' 1 ton Ford. I am attemptinmg to help him out with a charging problem.. If you happen to be familar I would appreciate a look see there.... Thanks for you help.... Mac

[johngus]

If the fluid is burnt,the trans is probably cooked.I'd take it out and send it to a competent rebuilder.the 700 is a good trans as long as all the updates are done to the rebuilt.I would probably add a temp guage when you put the new one in so you can make sure you don't cook it again.It sounds like you work it hard so it probably is fried.:(

[John DiMartino]

Mac, if your going with a HD rebuild. The corvette servo is the way to g,but the vette servo has no effect on 4th gear,it affects 2nd gear holding power(increases it),and firms the shift up a tad,it also ever so slightly quickens the 2-3 shift,but its hardly noticeable. If you tow or want a stronger 4th gear,you will need a billet 4th gear servo assy,it increases the surface area of the 4th apply piston.Now this needs to be done in conjunction with a 3/4 clutch pack upgrade to 7 clutches. the factory has 6 in the 700r4's.There are 9 thin ones available but the 7 blue plates seeem to work better in most cases. you can get them here along with a lot of good stuff. http://www.transmissionhead.com/ John

[Mac_Muz]

I have no trailer to pull that means much to this truck... Just a wooden dorry that is about 300 lbs, 18'9" over all...

What I want is to rebuild this so it will hang in there plowing in low range and low gear.

The fluid does not look bad , nor was it low, but it does smell burnt.

I have this down and out now... It is 10 degrees here and so no fun. Once I get this repaired it will also be no fun installing it alone. Just to do that I must add the tranfers case before the launch, as there is no way for me to lift the transfer case. The balance points just are not there for that...

Oh well, gotta do what ya gotta do eh?

Moday I hope to get this tranny to a shop. I will take this info gained here for more rugged parts. Mac

[EZSnow]

Mac, this won't help you diagnose the problem, but does it REALLY have 2.73:1 axle gears?!? That sounds more like a t-case low-range than an axle gear. Holy smoke, thats a long gear!! I just can't imagine that a V-8, overdrive-equipped, camper package, 4x4 truck would have any business with that sort of gear- even in 1984!!

sorry- had to ask

Welcome to SPC, Mac! You will learn!
-Derek

[Mac_Muz]

EZSnow, More or less that is correct... I bought the truck in 87' used..

In 90' I lunched the rear end. I had to wait 6 weeks as Chevy does not keep inventory for these gears. The gears were made while I waited...

At that time I had to figure out and tell Chevy just what I had..

I maybe be in error some what at this time, but I bel;ieve I have 2.73 or even 2.71 to 1 final drive gears.

I think that in 84 there were 27 possible gears used as final drive and the ones I have are near the top of the top for high gearing.

On a dead level with a 350 ci engine (4 bolt main) I can do 70 mph under 1,400 rpm.

My Chiltons says 9 possible gears and 2.56 is the top end, but I believe that is incorrect as well as the possiblility that I am... Mac

[ratlover]

John......you sure the vette servo dosnt controll the 2-4 band and thus dosnt help 4th too? :confused:

2nd gear and the rest of the lower gears generally arnt as much of a problem in a 700, most people seem to piss off 4th in my experience/oppinion. And most people burn up 700's due to the holding power of the clutches/bands not fraging the hard parts(although the sungear shell is kinda the natorious weak hard part) This can be helped with a good shift kit and the vette servo and the newer design pump and the 700 can be made to hold up to plenty of abuse IMO.

One thing I always do when installing a trany is to get 2 bolts that thread into the block that are 2.5" long or so and hack off the hex head. Then take a cut off wheel and cut a grove into the end so you can turn it with a screw driver. Now thread the homemade dowls into the block in the bottom holes on each side. It makes lining stuff up easier. Start some bolts and back out your dowls.

[ratlover]

And I cant remember the name brand but I think it has a green lable. Its a can with a little hose on it(kinda looks like a can of fix a flat) That screws right on your coller linse so you can flush the cooler real easy. Then blow it out with air.

[John DiMartino]

Phillip ive rebuilt several 700s im 100% positive that the vette servo doenst affect 4th.4th gear is a smaller piston outside the 2nd servo.There are several aftermarket 4th servos avalaible to increase apply area.

[Mac_Muz]

Next question...

Some years ago I removed the so called grease in the auto locking hubs. I replaced that with moly grease for cvjoints.

The original grease was the consistancy of oak tan leather, and so my auto hubs stiff function...

But every so often they seem to skip a beat when I am stuck and trying to rock out... i don't pound and slam too much, but I will attempt to rock out at times... Don't we all?

When I am really dug in bad I did , and I carry apx 60 of chain, 4 come-alongs and will winch out of most places.

So are auto locking hubs any part of tranny problem?
..........................................

Next thing : I dropped off the tranny today,and did give the guy a print out right or wrong of what was said here...

Unfortunatly we had another Nor Easter on hand and the guy was pretty busy. The one thing he said was something must have been wrong for the tranny to fail in the time since 99' and now... I hope he will explain a few things when he calls to say come get it....

I understand this tranny can't be bomb proof, but I hope it can plow a few more tons of snow... I am loosing my own place let alone small accounts..

Thanks for all ther advise, and may you never have any plowin' failures.. Yeah right :headwall Mac

[ratlover]

Auto hubs are natoriuos for shooting craps. I've had a pair kerspload on me. A set or warns are cheap and will work well. Even the premiums are under a hundered.

They also dont like to be over greased. I would first clean em out real good and regrease your wheel bearings. They need grease but dont fill the whole cavity with it. Greasing the hubs should be standar matinence every year or 2 and if you go through heavy water(when wheeling say)you should change it imediatly.

[Mac_Muz]

Ok but my auto hubs work pretty well.... Could they still lead to tranny failure with a missed lock up on the first try?

Mac

[ratlover]

nope

I think the grandma gears were the biggest contributing factor

[Mac_Muz]

Just too much heat eh? I must plow.. I have used this truck from 87' to 99' and for worse than what I do now.. In 99' like I said the tranny was splattered in big chunks.

This time fluid was smelling burnt but still new looking..

Next question: The guy doing the over haul seems not terribly interested in adding a temp gauge, but I am. I told him I wanted as rugged a tranny as he could make for additional dough..

Liuke many around here just now he is over worked and probably under paid..

I am guessing this gets installed in the pan??? Any info there might be of help, and what temp ranges would be considered normal, and what temps ranges would be considered getting to be too hot?

OT: The saga seemingly will never end. My wife got a new job 50 something miles away... But yesterday we had this Nor' Easter, and I was not so sure about her travelling in that.. She called and was sorta excused after some debate, and then today she went to go... About 1 hour went by and the phone rang.. It was her with a dead dead flat, on very recent studded tires.

Well all is well now, but she has decided that 100 miles a day is not her cup of tea... I have never had a streak of luck like this before...

In the Ford section I asked about a Alt I installed and checked against another Ford. That Alt worked about a week, and I askled the owner to take it else where as I never worked on any Fords before this one... Turned out the Alt was defective.. Tuirns out I lost all my brownie points. With 2 storms under my belt I am ready for Costa Rica..... Oh well.... Mac

[Alan]

Mac, Hang in there, yesterday I was about ready to give somebody one hell of a deal on a whole bunch of plow trucks. Met another plower at the diner this morning and HE asked if I wanted to BUY a bunch of trucks. HAH!

Anyhow, the auto hubs probably aren't related to our tranny failure, but they sure could explain those BANGs you heard. I watched an '80 K20 flexing the the frame as the hubs were unlocking/relocking under a hard pull under full throttle. It sounded like things were coming apart under there from the extreme torque loads being absorbed.

[Mac_Muz]

Allen, I am not sure if a fleet of plow trucks can help me out of this one now... The land lady's Brother pushed up bankings as if it was late March, and it is raining and turing to freezing rain and then snow it is said today...

Seems I am a tad south and some what East of you.. hard season so far here, and I bet where you are... Lots of trucks down here, besides mine I find...

If you have some old beater that works for sale really cheap but runs I suppose I could be interested, but I am not sure what for.

With any luck at all it will rain so hard the snow goes away by a act of God as that is about what I need at this point. This mess is laughable at best and cry able at worst.

I have been given leave of my few accounts as they couldn't wait...

I have the idea we may well get double the snow we are accustomed to.. More storms and bigger ones...

I ride a old motor bike and all it did was rain east of the White's all summer long. Things stay like that and not even the National Guard will get us out.

Have no fear, I have snow shoes and crampons and my 2 feet can walk around the block anytime I can figure out what the block is.

Tis' said it takes a village to raise a child, I'm pretty sure it takes a train to cry..... Mac

[campi]

Mac_Muz how are you making out with that tranny problem??? i hope its not to bad !!! Campi !!!!!

[Mac_Muz]

Well, Tis' bad i guess.. Dollars wise anyhow..

I did all I knew how to do, and could not determine what was wrong, so I dropped the tranny and took it to someone who is supposed to know, and be expert.

He was to have called "late in the week" last week, and no word has been hear yet.

We had 3 storms last week, and now we are nye on to X-Mass, so I will not bother him.

His est was $600.00 + and that sum is a bitter pill to choke on for me at this time.

I can only hope he knows his stuff, and the parts used are of quality. Only time can tell.....

I hope when the time comes the tech will be able to tell me what it was that failed.

I believe at this time that the pump and or the TC failed, but have no proof.

What ever can cause a loss of pressure seems to have given up the ghost. I don't believe there are broken parts, but more that a seal failed some where.

I will post as much detail as I am told. Being a X Foreign car tech I should at least be able to understand the terminology.


I am not sure what the tech will explain though.... Many folks seem to have a attitude about such things these days.

I tried to tell him the key things as I knew them and he didn't seem interested much, so I am left to wonder if the money will be well spent. Mac

[campi]

well i guess thats not good news, i hope this shop does right by you i guess you are at his mercy if you dont know him! any time of the year is not a good time for a break down but around holidays and you missed 3 snow events I hope every thing works out for you! the guys on this site know what their talking about like beefing up your trans! mine blew reverse 2 yrs ago and had just moved where i am at now a garage that did some minor work for me took my truck we he had his tow truck done , they rebuilt whole trans, every thing heavy duty called it bullet proof plus installed shift kit , new fly wheel and new tourqe converter, cost $900.00 including the towing ! truck shifts as smooth as silk!! i do trans service 2 times a year run nice size aux cooler and take my time plowing!! i am the only one who drives this truck EVER!! 1980 1 ton all rebuilt. hope you have the same luck. Campi !!!!

[Mac_Muz]

After fighting my way thru yer stunning grammar and punctuation, all I can say is me too Bro!

I hope and even pray the tech knows his stuff, and that I get a fair deal. All I ask is those 2 things even if it cost more... Mac

[campi]

Mac-muz, whats going on with your trans?? i think a few of us would like to know whats up with your trans? i would be interested knowing what they found and what they did to it ? is it done yet??? Campi !!!!!

[Mac_Muz]

I almost posted yesterday, but I did not have the tranny in hand...

It is said the oil pump failed, and the 2 clutch packs fried and so did the band...

I did not get to see the old parts......... not so pleased at that, but they are gone...

The work was 400 in labor and 275 in parts. I see a new TC, TV cable, and some covers. I was given a coorer system flush in a can like fix a flat comes in.

This AM I began to install, more clean up to get ready, but seem to have caught a bug.. Not feeling so very well I have decided to do what I can that is easy today and hope to have power in my limbs tomorrow... Some how the idea of weak arms and legs does not lend well to jacking a tranny on my back much...

The tech did not call me, as he said, but there were 3 storms and x-mass happened..... I think I can understand....

i was told to do the best i can with the tv cable but to drive the 12 miles to the shop asap so that can be checked, and at that time a "Short Warrenty" will be drawn up.

I wonder what that might be? I am not sure the guy likes me.. I might tend to talk to much to suit him... he sure doesn't say much...


What my problems are is this.... IF the clutches and the band was toast, why was the fluid red and clear, and why did my painting paper filter catch absolutly nothing?

I hope there are the parts in there.... I can see the TCF is brand new, and I asked for a new cable because it was chaffed in the middle, just the plastic housing...

I don't know what brand clutches and band either.. he did not say any one seal was bad.... Just the oil pump was out of spec, and that the rest was burnt...

I have my doubts about the rest so long as the others parts are new and fresh.....

I just had no more to say... I plan on sticking here for quite some time... Thank you for asking..... Mac

[Mac_Muz]

The tranny is in place.. I had to lauch it with the transfercase bolted up.. I was alone other than my wife who ran the floor jack..

With out her I would not have succeded getting that tranney up and bolted in..... For me it was a hard thing to do....

Time brought dark, and I was weary.... The rest is easy....

I pray this tranny works well...

Happy New Year! Mac

[wyldman]

You are a brave man.I have a hard enough time getting them in on a hoist,with a tranny jack.It's hard with the transfer case bolted on the back.Glad to hear it's in,lets hope it works well.

[tovoninc]

In regards to having nothing in the fluid when drained...is that because the magnet in the pan attracted it? Are the bands metal?

I am having my tranny checked friday since it is acting funny (delayed shifting - seems to slip or something) and the fluid was burned earlier this year (700R4).

Nice thread with lots of great input.

[Mac_Muz]

I have installed a drain in the pan, and used that to drain what oil lays in the pan. I used a auto paint paper filter over the drain pan, just to see what I might find.

I found nothing.

I dropped the pan before I removed the tranny, and by draining in a controlled way I did not spill any evidence....

The magnet was relitively clean. I won't say there was nothing on the magnet but what there was would not have so much as covered a postage stamp spread out.... That material was black.

There were 3 dots of black material that were the size of a # 8 penny common nail in the pan as well. I probed 1 and found it was made of fine sized particals.

There was a silver colored metalic powder in the pan as well, and this was local to one place, and the amount was smaller than 1/3 tea spoon.

I did not disturb the silver colored material, hoping it might be id by a tech..

No other foreign materail was seen by me any where else..

The fluid had a burnt smell, but other wise was red an clear.

I pulled the filter down and found by adding some clear plastic tubing I had on hand that I could easily blow back thru it..

I reverse blew it with air over white paper, and found no solids.
.................................................. .................................................

As far as I know bands have a metal backing plate like brake shoes do.... Then there is a material which reminds me of brake shoes applied to the backing. I do not know what the material really is....

There are 2 clutch packs and they have alternating friction plates and steel plates as far as I know. SO some steel and some bonding material could with in reason be expected to be found in the pan as fine sediment...
.................................................. ....................................

There is a cable called a "TV Cable" which by way of the throttle position controlls a throttle valve in the tranny, which allows AFT under pressure from the front pump ( Some folks still call the only oil pump the front pump as once there was a 2nd pump aft in auto trannies.) To regulate shifting time and hydralic pressure to the device which is being controlled at that time and rpm.

It can controll how harsh the shift is made.

I am not sure exactly how the tv cable really works, but it is a critical adjustment. I think a tv cable that is allowing for to long of a shift may cause a poor lock up of a band or a clutch pack...

.................................................. ...

On my tranny the tech said the band was gone, and both clutch packs were toast.... I do not believe that for one second... There was no evidence of anything like that in the oil (ATF).

He also said the front pump was out of spec. That I can believe as I sure did have a pressure loss. But that is not the only way to get a pressure loss.

What happened to me happened with NO Warning, no nothing.

Everthing was just peachy from 99' sometime when I installed this tranny to the very second I had about zip.

I drove 1 mile in limp mode and came into limp mode doing 50 mph, in 2 high. After that I discovered the truck could move forwards and backwards and so I moved it apx 400 feet into a shed. It took about 3,500 RPM to get the truck to just move...

I would say it acted as if it was slipping then for sure, but was it really slipping??? Could it be that just not much pressure was developed due to a pump gone bad?

I also suspected the TC (torque converter) to have gone bad, but now I wonder?

I have come to find they more or less don't just go bad, and when they do you see metal particals of a brass like nature, and when shaken should be able to hear rattlings inside..

The TC has 2 tabs or lands which are engaged into the pump. Since the TC is bolted hard to the flex plate, and the tabs are part of the TC case the tabs must turn 1 for 1 with the engine, to drive the pump. There is not that much oil flow between the TC and the rest of the tranny as I understand it.

I was in some error about that very idea, and had the idea the TC provided some hydralic pressure to the tranny... Probably as I say I was wrong on that..

What I believe now is the pump failed massively, and nothing more was really wrong.
.................................................. ....................................

The tech said nothing about any seals being bad...

He is aware I was a foreign car tech for better than 20 years, but not a auto tranny tech...

While I remain curious, I find no fault yet as I have no finished up with my install.

I don't care really what was wrong so long as it is fixed well. If I could prove the front pump was the problem, I still would have wanted a over haul with new clutch packs and a band as it is a major pain to pull and install these trannys alone...

I can't prove there are new parts in there either, but I hope I can take a mans word that there are. I think I paid for these parts.
.................................................. ............................

Today I will finish up, and still I have a question.. My chiltons does not go into much detail about adjusting the TV cable, and this is something I need to do before I drive far...

If anyone knows what must be done, I would appreciate it. I intend to have the tech have a look, but would prefer to be close to correct.

The new cable is some after market type, and is not much like the factory orginal. There is some device which I can't seem to mange that moves.... and there is a barrel and screw cable lock I can set with ease...

Where should the throttle be, and what tension am I looking for to set?.
.................................................. ....................

I have seen other trannys working well with a lot more crud in the pan than mine had... I see no evidence of any failed metalic parts, or bonded parts...

As far as I can tell there is nothing you can adjust short of the TV cable with the tranny installed, and only a pressure test can be accomplished with a gauge installed which as it turns out I didn't have, and as money is very tight, didn't purchase.

I would have liked to have known those figures, but still the tranny would have had to come out... And I didn't see the point of spending money in such hard times as I am having currently for a tool that would not tell me why...

The sheer weight of the tranny with the transfercase is almost beyond my ability to install with my wife running the jack..

It would have been far easier to install the tranny alone and then add the transfer case, but there is no good way to get a jacking point on this transfercase, and it is still to heavy for me to lift alone. So my only choice was bolt them up and launch as a unit..

My wife learned the finer points of a floor jack, and is in no hurry to learn much more. She discovered I speak fluent French, and can swear with the best of sailors.

I laid that tranny on its side and rolled it up on a floor jack. I wiggled a sliver of ply wood under it, and that was that....

Untill I discovered I was 3/8" low with the jack all the way up..

There was nothing more to do, than get under that blasted tranny, and wedge my knees under the transfer case, and bench press with every ounce of energy I could muster to slam that tranny home.... The problem is I tip the scales soaking wet at 145lbs, am 52 years old, and am no weight lifter by choice.

.................................................. .........................

I will follow up on what happens as soon as it happens.... Thanks for reading this long missive of my mischief. Mac

Happy New Year to all........ And to all here, you guys gave me courage..

[wyldman]

The TV cable is an easy adjustment.

Depress the locking tab (where it snaps into the throttle cable bracket),and pull the cable all the way back (towards the back of the engine).Then get in the truck (engine off),and depress the gas pedal hard to the floor a few times.That will set the cable in it's correct position.

If the TV cable is left unadjusted,then it will take the tranny out in no time flat.

[John DiMartino]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mac_Muz
[B]Up date:

I have been able to get the truck at 2,500 rpm to back up 100+ feet, then go forward 300 feet, even up a hill apx 20 feet, again reversing into a garage where the weather is better..

Mac, after doing this to the transmission there cannot be any doubt that you fired every clutch that was applied at the time. My feeling is if you had removed the trans without doing any of this testing you may have had a lower repair bill.

[Mac_Muz]

Thanks for the info.. I will do it...
.........................
The moving was no test.. It was to get the truck in as much shelter as is possible... I find it rather hard to push the truck by hand alone, and find working on ice not much fun..

The shed is better than ice, but not much. It has a cement floor and that helps with jack stands..

Perhaps it is better that if I fired the clutches that I did fry the clutches. I just wonder why there was no metalic and or bonded particals as I might expect in the pan?

If I truely burnt these parts up, then there has to be new ones in there... To me that is a good thing...

I hope you are very correct.... Mac