not happy with caliber M1000

[Plower737]

If I am wrong please someone let me know. I bought a 55 gallon drum of 1000. I was under the impression that it can be used in place of salt. I was also under the impression that it melts ice. I was also under the impresson that it melts up to 2"-3" of snow. I also thought that 1 gallon will treat 1500 square ft. I did not pre treat with it. I sprayed it on after we cleared the walks. Snow still covered the walks. Sprayed it on a patch of ice. It crackeled like salt for about 10 sec. and then nothing. Didn't even melt the ice or go through to the pavement like salt does. The only thing that it did do was cost me time and materials, ( had to buy sidewalk salt , cause it wasn't melting). But it did however keep the snow or ice from sticking(not forming on) the pavement. I used what I thought was over application ( about 2 gallons in a 100 square ft area) and the 1000 did nothing to melt the ice. I was having better luck with the radiation of the sun melting the ice. Unless I was miss informed or mislead, I think the stuff sucks. If someone can tell me what I'm doing wrong or what ever that would be great. I've go 3/4 of a barrel on my truck, and its doing nothing but adding ballast for plowing as far as I'm concerned. By the way we were applying the product to sidewalks with a back pack sprayer.

[BWhite]

interesting is it just for pretreatment in liquid form ?

[Mick]

Plower737, I'll be interested in following this thread. Do you tried any other liquid as a comparison? I think the claim of melting up to 2" refers to pre-treating and melting as it falls. I haven't used Caliber but from what I understand 1000 is for sidewalks and 2000 is for streets.(?)

[Plower737]

Well what we did was clear the walks and then applied the caliber to the walks with a backpack sprayer. After we applied the caliber the snow still fell and accumulated on the walks. I will admit though even if people walked on it the snow didn't stick to the walks, but still had to be shoveled. We only had 3.5" of snow. I was under the impression that it melts ice like salt so I didn't think I needed to buy salt. Luckily I had some left over from last year to get me through. I'm not saying the product is total junk but I must have been misinformed about what the product did.

[szorno]

Plower737, lets see if we can correct some of your misconceptions. 1 gal is for 500-900 sq ft in a pre-treat usage. If you have genuine ice, then you need to put it on in a stream, not a spray, and use 1 gal to 2-300 sq ft.
It will melt 1-1.5 in snow as a pre-treat. Put over fresh fallen over 1.5 in deep you would have to use quite a bit. If you have thick (over 1/2 in) ice, you need a dry melt like salt or CaCl. The liquid runs off unless you shoot it in a stream and use a bunch.
Caliber's real use IMO, is as a pretreat on pavement or smooth concrete. Ice just doesn't form, and it makes plowing peel up to black with no sno-dust residue. It is more enviro friendly that regular mag chloride too.
Hope this helps.

;)

[gordyo]

I would agree with szorno. It is a pre treatment. I tried 5 gallons last friday night. Pretreated the patio of our Chapel on campus with 5 gallons of M1000. Worked awesome. Bare and Wet

[Alan]

I'm not particularly knowledgeable about liquid apps, but from what I have learned they are far better a a pretreatment (anti-ice) than as as a removal tool (de-ice).

I tried Magic on some walks earlier this season, on top of a half inch of frozen "crunchy" wet snow. In that situation the liquid stayed in place and soaked into the porous surface. I applied in a stream and got good results where the liquid saturated the crust but very little spread.

BUT! After the slop was removed and the concrete had dried there were dark areas where the Magic had settled into the texture to the concrete. The next snowfall, a dusting of quite dry snow, it melted as if fell on the dark spots.

I will be switching to Caliber so I can avoid the spotting on concrete and I won't hesitate to apply well in advance, in a fan so I can cover the entire surface lightly.

I think, and this is pure conjecture, that when you apply a liquid to very hard pack or ice you will get an initial melting. That will provide water which will immediately dilute the solution and raise the melting point, thereby slowing the melting action. At the same time the water will carry chemical off the surface, probably quite rapidly. This further lowers the concentration of the chemical in contact with the surface.

When you apply granular product to a packed surface the initial melting reduces the surface area of the granules but in the process creates a pocket around them. That results in the chemical brine being contained around the granule in a concentration high enough to be effective. The granule will also burn down to pavement where the brine can and will spread across the pavement surface and break the bond between pavement and pack, allowing it to be removed.

I'll be researching more about liquids and proper application through this winter. At the present I tend to think of liquids best used in the anti-ice role while granular products are better for de-icing.

[WoofsPlow]

I have a spray set-up on my truck but was unable to get with my supplier before the last storm. I also have a small hitch type spreader that I use rock salt. Would a combo of both be the best bet? The salt to break the surface and the caliber to penetrate to the surface and spread? The spreader spreads very thin. Good thread!:)

[HerkFE]

Let's see if I can add to the confusion... I work for one of the distributors of these products and we use them on our own accounts as well.

Magic -0 Brown liquid, Recommended for treating salt and can be used to pre-treat walkways, parking areas, roads, etc. Water soluble and non-staining.

M1000 Mostly clear liquid, used for pre-treating walkways, lots, roads, etc. Not recommended for pre-treating salt because it isn't absorbed well and tends to leach out. Water soluble and non-staining.

M2000 Bluish in color, used to pre-treat walkways, parking areas, roads, etc. Can be used to pre-treat salt. Higher in cost than Magic and M1000. Water soluble and non-staining.

The following information is from our own use on these two recent storms. We use Magic extensively and Caliber occasionally when needed because of the color issue.

As Alan stated their strengths are in the pre-treatment of lots, but are also very effective when used to treat salt. Let’s look at how quickly salt loses its effectiveness you will see what I mean. Anyone got a good link to the chart about salt melting vs temps? When Magic is applied to salt, the salt remains effective to a much lower temperature. This means you will use significantly less salt to treat the same amount of square footage as temps drop.

We pretreated our lots a day or so ahead of a projected event with liquid Magic at a rate of approximately 1 Gal per 1500 sqft using a spray bar with fan nozzles attached to our dedicated deice/salt truck. The results have been that as the snow falls and the Magic comes back into solution the snow did not even begin to accumulate until after the first inch or so. Our contracts require a clean lot, vice a 3" trigger, etc., so we are always going to be on site to perform a service during any precipitation event. When it does accumulate, even areas that weren't touched during the 12+ we had, when plowed, were "black and wet" underneath which greatly reduced cleanup. Even then, as flurries continued the residual effect of the Magic on the pavement kept them "black and wet". For hardpack or ice, we would have to switch nozzles to a pencil point type for better penetration, and consequently much more liquid. We did this for a client who has since become a pre-treat customer.

We also have people who pre-treat with treated salt. By applying it when prior to the storm when the pavement is dry the salt, with Magic applied, gets crushed into the pavement. As precip starts, it begins to burn it off immediately and prevents the bonding of the snow to the surface.

We are basically presenting it this way to our customers. Use the liquids to pre-treat, and treated salt during storm use. We do use the liquids also during storms if there is a problem area, or on hills where gravity helps it travel, but the salt seems to give more bang for the buck. As for laying down our treated salt, I was able to use less than half of what we normally would have used. We have just finished figuring our costs on this last round and compared to a similar event last year our material costs were way down. Labor was too, less plowing and cleanup mainly. And we did factor in our Magic and all that goes along with treating salt, etc.

We got so busy during this last storm that I only had time to snap a picture or two. When I find my camera, I’ll try to get them posted. I know its somewhere in the deice truck, or maybe one of four plow trucks I was in, or maybe the Bobcats….


Pete :usa

[BWhite]

How well do these liquid pretreatments work on pavement with a grade . Does it just wash down ??

[HerkFE]

The pre-treatment itself should not run as it is applied. You should be putting it on with a light fan type nozzle. As precipitaion occurs there may well be some "travel" of the treatment mixing with the precip, but that is a bonus. Now it will migrate and help to deice as it goes. Of course this is all dependant on the grade, amount of precip, etc.

Like I partially explained above. We use liquids sometimes during the storm along with treated salt. If we have a problem area or an area where the liquid will travel well along with the grade we will sometimes apply it. It is kind of a "feel" thing. Like any new piece of equipment or technique, you have to play with it a little. We experiment a little bit every time we use our gear. No one combination of material or equipment or technique works for every situation. We look back and discuss what we did, the results we got and most importantly, the errors we made. Liquids are now becoming known to the private snow contractor world. It is a education issue but the results have been well worth the time it is taking to get everything down. The learning never stops.


Pete :usa

[szorno]

I have the same experience on hills as HerkFe. In the mountains we have lots of hills, and inclined driveways. We use a fan spray an put down about 1 gallon per 800-1000 sq ft with Caliber and 1 gallon to about 500-800 sq ft with regualr mag chloride solution. (Meltdown is what we use) No run off in application and minimal runoff in early storm. We found that both liquids work well where we treat 24-72 hrs before the storm. If we mess up in our prediction, then both have a 2 week on the ground life. Then we plow completely when the storm is over if at all possible. Thats when the liquids really do their thing and you get wet & black.
We sprayed Sunday night and the snow started monday noon and went to just past midnight. We did a little cleanup during the storm more for looks than effectiveness. We plowed this morning. In spite of being driven on we got a lot up nicely when finished. I went back and checked this afternoon about 4:30 and all key customers had mostly black with little shallow sheets of slush. All will be dry by noon tomorrow. That is why we do it. no ice anywhere in spite of traffic during the storm.
This is our 5th year with Mag and we just added Caliber for our more environmentally conscious customer.
:greenange :grinz

[WoofsPlow]

There is no way I can talk my resy customers into pretreating and it's not worth it for me to do it on my own accord. Would a combo of both be the best bet? The salt to break the surface and the caliber to penetrate to the surface and spread?

[HerkFE]

I think I understand what you would be trying to do by using both, but I don't think it will produce the results you are looking for in your application. The Magic or Caliber, when used as a pre-treatment, prevent the bonding of the snow to the pavement and also help prevent ice build up. This happens as the precip occurs. You can certainly use both but I think the key element here would be time. If you allow snow to build up, then plow and THEN put down treated salt you will melt the snow and or ice. By applying the liquid along with salt you will speed up the process because you don't have to wait for the treated salt to dissolve and become solution and so on. Still it takes time to "work". By pre-treating, it begins as soon as precip does. Are you going to wait at the drives for the salt to work before plowing? Two trips? Time is money and that is what pre-treating saves you, time.

We use both when we have to mainly because it works in conjunction with the pre-treatments. If not pretreated we tend to go heavier on the treated salt application vice using a combo (just what works for us...others may do it different).

Depending on the square footage of the drives you may find it cost effective to pretreat with either treated salt or liquid. What is the average residential driveway in sqft? 2K? I don't know, but that would be about 2 gallons of liquid . Pick it up yourself, that about $4. Less for salt, it will crush in and give good results. Figure in some labor. Remember you can pre-treat days before precip and it will work. Do it when you have time before and make your life easier. How much does it cost you to try to scrape hardpack on ice? It may be cost effective to use it. Here's another thing. How much for your insurance? Reducing the likelyhood of a slip and fall is another reason to consider it.

We are having fantastic results and so are our customers. We treated another 75 tons today and if the rain holds off (no chance) we have 120 tons scheduled for tomorrow. All repeat customers who tried it for the first time on their last piles.

We kind of got off the Caliber subject that started this off but I think this is a good discussion anyway.

Pete :usa

[Crazygator]

Just for the sake of everyone's knowledge, what do you guys charge to pretreat?

Take the above example of a driveway about 2k. What would you charge to do it?

This might help us all see where another advantage is, saving money because of less time when actually plowing, meaning easier removal because of no bonding or sticking to the pavement.

[szorno]

We have a $35 minimum and that covers up to about 15,000 sq ft, depending on obstacles etc. Most small businesses are at $50 per treatment. The nice thing from a business point of view, is that I can schedule it a day or two before the storm at my convenience. Not in panic, gotta get it done mode.
If someone wants details on pricing etc, you can email me. Keep in mind that I am only 80 miles from the mfgr of the products we use, and we have been doing it 5 years. Ground floor is a good place to be with a supplier who remembers the little guys. The supplier is the key to a good liquid program. IMHO...:D

[HerkFE]

We don't do residentials. Ours is strictly commercial. As for liquid pricing it is pretty straightforward. We give them an estimate based on the square footage and go from there. When we apply it we just measure the amount we put down. We are usually pretty close if not under our estimates. Prices for Magic around here average about $3.25 a gallon (sprayed or delivered to your site) and rarely do we charge a trip charge unless they are out of the way or have an "emergency" that throws a wrench in the schedule for us. You know the saying..."Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part". The per gallon charge is the same as if we were treating a salt pile. That price, give or take a few cents, is pretty standard for Magic around here. If you have a large acount you may be able to get a break. We have one that is over 9 acres of parking.

Like I said before, it is an education issue. Take a look at liquids, treated salt, etc. Do the math and compare TOTAL costs. We are using less material, manpower, equipment. We are seeing significant savings and realizing much better results.


Pete usa

[Snoworks]

szorno - How many gallons are you using to pretreat a driveway. From my calcs. you would need in excess of 15 gallons on a 15,000 sf driveway. Are you paying anywhere near $2.00 a gallon for product. If so, how are you making a profit?

Maybee I am missing something!

Sounds like a great tool for selling residential customers. Does it work well on brick pavers, etc. So pretreatment should be preformed no later than 12 before a storm? When does the pavement dry out? When will pavement freeze over, when using a liquid?

Chuck B.

[Plower737]

So basicly I was mislead about the way to use Caliber. If its a pretreatment then thats fine. I was under the impression that it can be used after the ice or snow had formed to melt the snow and ice at a rate of 1 gal per 1500sq ft.. But what I still don't understand is. we shoveled some walks as it was snowing and applied this product to the walks and it didn't "burn" the snow off like some have said. Well now that I know I guess I need to go buy some sidewalk salt.

[szorno]

OK Snoworks, lets see if we can get all those
If you have a 15000 sq ft driveway then, I would put down 15-20 gallons of mag or 12-15 gal of Caliber. I buy it a bunch cheaper but I buy it 4,500 gallons at a time. (2 tanks 1500 and 3000)
Note- it does not work well on porous surfaces like bricks or recycled asphalt. I use only on asphalt in decent condition and concrete. I put it down most any time before the storm hits. I have even been putting it down as the first flakes are falling. Still works great. The pavement dries out after about 48 hrs of no precip. (Mountain humidities though- way low) It stays on the ground about 2 weeks just fine. We do refresh the hi traffic areas after 2 weeks. I can't speak to the re-freeze issue as it just doesn't happen much around here. With our low humidity, when we get it to black and wet, it dries completely the same day 95% of the time.
There is an article on the regular part of this page I wrote (A Primer on Mag Chloride)that has more info on how we settled on liquid and what we do. Check it out too. :cash

[Snoworks]

Thanks for the response szorno.

Here are some more questions for you.

Do you need to keep track of the pavement temp? Have you ever created a ice condition using the liquid? What temps. will the liquids work down too?

So pretreating, correctely, will melt down at least an inch of snow? (Yes or No) If yes - Then after plowing over same area that was pretreated, it will not become a slick condition? (Yes or No)

Chuck B.:rolleyes:

[HerkFE]

We keep track of pavement and air temps when we apply our liquids. Magic in liquid form can be slightly slick until it dries when applied at surface temps above 32 degrees F. Caliber does not have this limitation.

We have never had a problem of creating an icing condition by using liquids. They are specifically designed to prevent that. As with any product that melts snow and ice, as it dilutes it loses effectiveness and the subsequent solution is susceptible to refreeze. We watch for it and treat it if it occurs. A lot depends on your local weather conditions but it has not been an issue. Prior to using treated salt and liquids we had several problem areas on one of our major accounts. Due to limitiations, we could only stack snow on the uphill open lot. Consequenlty, during the day the snow would melt, run down and refreeze in the early evening. It was a real headache to watch. With the treated salt and liquid the residual effect is really helping to control this. It lets us breathe a little easier now.

We had good luck (last year) with temps 0 to -15 deg F. The treated salt was much more effective than the straight salt we saw our counterparts applying and we were using half the material. Again, the best thing was the reduction or ice buildup and ease of cleanups.

Will it melt an inch or so of snow? We certainly have seen those kinds of results. When we pretreated prior to that small event, approx 2 inches or so a few weeks ago, we had no need to go do any plowing of any sort. The pretreatment stopped most of the accumulation and where it did start to accumulate, a quick pass with a splash of treated salt took care of it. We have not had any problems with an area that had been pret-treated becoming slick after being plowed. Quite the contrary, the pavement was bare and black.

Hope this helps!

Pete :usa

[HerkFE]

Well, finally found the camera hiding in the deice rig. Here are a couple of pictures. We had pre-treated the lot and then plowed after about three inches. Followed that with one pass of treated salt. Spreader door was opened to approximately half of a non-treated salt setting. Across the street the contractor had plowed about the same time as us, maybe 10-15 minutes difference, and made one pass with untreated salt.

Anyway, here are a couple of pics. Between the pre-treatment, plow pass, and pass of salt we had a comlete burn and the roadway is in great shape. The residual helped take care of the remainder of the flurries so we stayed wet & black all day. This was taken about 45 minutes after our salt pass.


Pete

[HerkFE]

Little closer view of the entrances....

[JustUsDe]

Originally posted by Plower737
So basicly I was mislead about the way to use Caliber. If its a pretreatment then thats fine. I was under the impression that it can be used after the ice or snow had formed to melt the snow and ice at a rate of 1 gal per 1500sq ft.. But what I still don't understand is. we shoveled some walks as it was snowing and applied this product to the walks and it didn't "burn" the snow off like some have said. Well now that I know I guess I need to go buy some sidewalk salt.


Brian,
Sorry to hear it didnt work out for you. I was under the same impression as you were about that stuff. We heard those claims while were were in N.Y. I'm glad I waited to see how others made out with it.

Ray

P.S. Keep me informed on how you make out with the rest of it.

[WoofsPlow]

Unless any of the de-icing agents can be used in conjunction with rock salt (application after plowing) I can't justify it on my residential accounts. Next year I will be going for some commercial and will consider it then. The advantage may be that once it's pretreated I may not have to worry about the site for a few hours allowing me to be elsewhere. Thanks to all for the info.:)

[Plower737]

Hey woofsplow, you might not be able to let it go for a couple of hours. We got 3" and we shoveled off the first 2 and treated the walks. The stuff never burned it off. The ONLY thing I can say about this product so far is that once applied, snow or ice won't STICK to the surface. But does nothing to stop it from forming on the surface. I haven't used it as a pretreatment yet, so I'm not going to give up yet. The next storm I'll go and pretreat and see what I get.

PS: Hey JustUsDe, seems youguys get more snow than we do. If you ever need help and we don't get snow down here, just call. me. Email me if you don't have my number.
Brimow525@aol.com

[szorno]

Sorry to be out of pocket for a couple days. We had a storm yesterday, and I was prepping most of the weekend.
Anyway, as far as pre-treat, dusting to 1/2 inch the liquid Caliber or Mag, no problem. Melts every time. 1/2 to 1 inch, depends on temp. Worst case, black peeking thru and any tracks go thru to black. Over 1 inch, just keeps from bonding to ground. Hence, no ice.
We only keep track of air temps. We may start tracking ground temps next year. it is useful info, but the thermometer guns are still kinda pricey for us mountain folk.
We have good luck with mag down to about 5 above. it gets pretty iffy below that. Mfgr claims -10 but I don't think that it is truly functional at that temp. Caliber is good to a lower temp, but we are on our first load, and have not had cold temps yet. I expect it to work to -5 or -10.
Generally neither mag or caliber is very slick in the quantities we apply.
As of now, we do not pre-treat any residences. Most just want plowing. The only exception is a one shot deal where the owner is having company and wants his driveway as close to dry as possible. Then I use dry melt and a lawn spreader first and a quick dose of mag after letting the dry workfor 1/2 hr or so. Good combo. People aorund here have a fit if we use any salt product, so mag/Caliber and dry melt are our products.

[BRL]

"The ONLY thing I can say about this product so far is that once applied, snow or ice won't STICK to the surface."

Brimow,
This is the goal, no? If the snow is accumulating, but not creating an icy bond to the surface, that is OK. The snow will still need to be removed, but in the meantime, you have provided safe access to the facilities. That's why I salt with the storm, to prevent the snow from becoming an icy dangerous situation. I haven't used liquids, but I have used Magic & Ice Ban treated salt. Those products gave me the results I needed, but I used less product & got some residual control compared to the straight rock salt. So after following this thread, it sounds like you were lead to believe that the liquid product was a magical solution to removing accumulation, but it does not really go that far. It simply keeps the snow from causing unsafe access to your client's locations, until it can be removed. It also probably keeps some of the accumulation from happening, just not as much as you had thought might happen. I know in our last storm I had measured one site, treated the laneways with straight salt, then measured later when I came back. The areas where I had salted (not a heavy app) were about an inch less accumulation than other untreated areas. This was a snow that changed to rain so it was warm. In a colder storm I'm sure I wouldn't get an inch of prevented accumulation from the same app. I would have to imagine that the Caliber is doing at least that, or better even. IMO that product is doing what it is supposed to, but the applications just might need some tweaking with the learning process to get better results possibly?

[HerkFE]

Afer re-reading this thread, and especially BRL's above reply, I feel like a light just popped on in my noggin. I misunderstood what all the confusion was about. I guess a lot of people seem to think that Magic, Caliber, etc liquids will burn off large accumulations of snow and ice with a single application. As szorno stated that up to .5" always and up to 1" dependant on temps. We have certainly seen those results and have "burned off" larger accumulations, however with much more treated salt applications. We had a friend who lost a plow during a critical time last year and we sent a salter over and basically burned off about 4" of snow. Was it pricey, a little, but it was better than not getting paid or risking a loss of a good contract for lack of service.

The bonding prevention is tha main factor for pre-treatment. A bonus is that the residual will most likely take care of small amounts of precip that could later cause icing. Like I said earlier, we now have virtually no refreeze problems.

Actually, many deice agents do similar actions. Looking at a bag of Calcium Chloride I read where the product is designed to melt through the ice and break the bond of between the ice and pavement to allow for easier snow and ice removal. The advantage of pre-treating is that you don't have to wait for that melting/solution exchange to occur. By the time you have an accumulation the agent has already prevented a bond. If you compare treated salt or other granular product to a liquid for pre-treatment the advantage of the liquid is coverage. People have used various granulars with limited success. They will get crushed into the pavement and will activate when precip hits them. With a granular product however, you only get treatment where the granuals are crushed. Again you must wait for the granuals to come into solution and travel to get complete coverage. With liquid you get complete coverage from the start.

This is our second year with liquids and we are constantly experimenting. We are learning more every day. Discussions like this are so helpful! If anyone has any tips or trick, please drop me a line!!

Pete :usa

[Plower737]

OK , I'm not really saying its a bad product but I was lead to believe that it melts ice that has already formed on pavements like regular salt. If its just a pretreater than thats fine, but thats not what I was told. Like I said luckily I had some jiffy melt left over from last year to do my walks. The next storm I will pretreat to see what happens.

[Roady]

I got the same sales pitch as Plower737. And the same results


Caliber is snakeoil.

[Big Nate's Plowing]

Originally posted by Roady
I got the same sales pitch as Plower737. And the same results


Caliber is snakeoil.

BS, I use it on our front porch and walkway and on the neighbors wheelchair ramp whenever snow is forcasted, it works up to an inch but the product is for PRETREATING not as a deicer.

[HerkFE]

Plower, Roady, and to Whom It May Concern....

Magic and Caliber M1000 and 2000 are not just for pre-treating. They have their place in the melting arena also. A key benefit that comes into play is that they keep salt effective to a much lower temp. Quick, without looking....How many pounds of salt does it take at 5 degrees F to melt 400 pounds of ice? (Insert Jeapordy soundtrack here...) Answer is! About 100 Ref: http://www.snowplowing-contractors.com/saltvstemp.html Now, if I take my treated salt I will only have to use about 20 pounds (maybe) to treat that same amount. That is because the Magic or Caliber treated salt is effective to a much lower temp. With temps around here staying near the freezing point lately it doesn't make that great a difference. What we do get though is reduce bonding, refreeze, etc (see other posts). Come late Jan or Feb when the temps dip, whole 'nother story!

Are they the "be all to end all" in the snow and ice world? Nope...but if I ever invent one product that does EVERYTHING for EVERYBODY and is priced even close to Magic or Caliber I will be able to retire a happy man.

Anyway, Roady, where are you located? I would be happy to discuss this with anyone, based on our results.....it works for us. We pre-treated tonight as they have forecasted frozen rain in the overnight. I am confident that it will melt as it touches our pre-treated surfaces. Ground temps were about 27-29 when we applied it... Small insurance policy for us as one of our contracts opens around 0445. Buys us time.....keeps us out of court!!

Pete :usa

[Plower737]

BIG NATE SAID:the product is for PRETREATING not as a deicer.


This is really my whole arguement about the product. Like I said in the beginning I was LEAD to believe that M1000 can replace salt, "burn off" 3" of snow, pre-treat for ice and snow, keep snow and ice from sticking to surface. All I'm saying is that I used it in a 3" storm and shoveled the first 2" and applied and still had to remove the last inch with the shovels. Didn't do what I was told it would do. Maybe I was a bit harsh in saying the product sux. I'm just trying to fiqure out what it is supposed to do. I want something that melts ice like salt. Thats what customers want. They could care less is the ice sticks to the pavement. The only one that benefits is the shoveler. Maybe I didn't use enough in areas. But then again I use about 2 gallons in a 100 sq ft area and it did nothing to melt the ice.

[Plower737]

Oh by the way, I'm not pretreating salt with this product. I am putting it directly on the pavement surface. Thats what I was told to do with it.

[Roady]

Just curious were you there when they made the sales pitch to me? Did you see me apply it? Did you see my results? I didn't think so. Unless you are the amazing Kreskin. FWIW my supplier feels the same way I do about it.

[HerkFE]

Plower737 said:
I want something that melts ice like salt. Thats what customers want. They could care less is the ice sticks to the pavement. I would argue that they do care if ice sticks to the pavement....aren't they paying you to remove it?

Caliber M1000 is not recommended (at least by us) to be mixed with salt to create treated salt. Too much leaching of it out of the salt. M2000 and Magic are far superior for that application.

Roady says:
I didn't think so. Unless you are the amazing Kreskin. FWIW my supplier feels the same way I do about it. Don't take it personal... A couple of quick thoughts about your situation. 1. If your supplier thinks the product is bad, why is he a distributor at all? 2. Maybe he is not giving the right application information. Is he a "Snow and Ice Professional" or just a chemical or salt supplier? We are a distributor and also an end user so we get lots of information from our own experience with these products.

Plower, you can direct pre-treat with Caliber M1000. It will most likely "burn off" that inch you were mentioning, but it performs much better in that capacity as the precipitation begins to accumulate. If you plow or shovel the first two inches then try to burn off the last one it won't work nearly as well as if you pre-treat, let the first inch burn off (no accumulation). Then when it does dilute and snow accumulates and you plow/shovel, you will be left with a clean, wet, no hardpack, no ice surface as a result of the residual effects.

Good luck!

Pete :usa

[Plower737]

So maybe instead of the 1000 I should go with the m2000? Does that do better for melting ice? I do agree that it does a great job with not allowing ice or snow to "stick" to the pavement , I do like that. So it is definetly a pretreater and regular salt may still have to be used. I can live with that. I just wanted to know either what I was doing wrong or what I was told wrong. I still have about 40 gallons left. So the next event I'm going to pretreat and see what happens.

[HerkFE]

The M2000 is recommended for use on treating salt and pre-treating. It's only real drawback is that it is slightly more expensive than Magic or M1000. Around here it is about $2.35 a gallon picked up (give or take a few cents) vs Magic at $2.00 a gallon picked up. It's also blue in color, but it's water soluable so no stains....

Liquids and treated salts are just now kind of getting to the local contractor levels. There will be some learning curves and misinformation/misunderstandings to overcome but they defintely have their place.

Drop me a PM if I can be of any help directly.

Pete :usa

[Roady]

My supplier is new to this product. They had a seminar anf the people from Taconic were there and made these claims. It will melt 2" of snow. And it will go 1500 sf to a gallon. Same line plower Plower737 got. I'm still expermanting with it but I'm glad I diodn't sell all my customers on it like I did Magic Salt which BTW is working great for me.

Ice strom tonight. Time to try it again.

[nsmilligan]

I'm on my 3rd barrel of M2000, all applied as a treatment on salt, and I'm very happy. The last 3 days have seen highs of -15C and lows of -25C ( 0 to -20f) for you southern folks. Today my lots started to bare up under a little sun, no hard pack, compared to everybody else, spreading sand, and lots of hard pack that will take a loader and bucket to scrape or a grader with ice blades!) It will melt snow as it falls if applied as a pre-treatment and one of it's best qualities, if it doesn't rain, is it's residual effect, it will remain and with a light snow fall and a litttle sun, the lot will be black. It's most endearing quality is that I use 1/2 or less of the salt of my competitors, and get better results. The best part there's no special equipement needed. I apply my M2000 directly to salt AFTER it's loaded in the spreader, I simply pour on a measured amount. The Trackless has is a drop spreader and very little leakes out, as with the trynex. I'm not sure as to the claims of melting 2" of snow because there are too many varibles, #1 being temperature. Will it melt 2" of snow fall at 0 F no way, at 0 C ( 32 F) yes. The biggest difference between it and Magic -0 which I used last year is it's thicker ( viscosity), lighter in colour, and it mixes with the salt better ( the way I'm using it)
I'm thinking of M1000 next year as a liquid pre-treatment.

Bill

[BWhite]

Have the guys from Taconic (John) made it to this site . I mentioned SC to him at the NE snow and ice show . Maybe he can clear up the confusion about what he has said about these products at the seminars he has run .

[Tom Baldwin]

The info sheet I have on M1000 does not make any of the claim some of you were told. I quote from the sheet " Anti-icing: provides superior "anti-bonding" properties, allowing removal of snowpack with simple plowing." De-icing: As a liquid de-icer, CM1000 provides increased performance vs. other liquid products. When applied in a stream pattern, CM1000 vertically penetrates the snowpack and breaks the bond at the road surface." And it goes on about pre-wetting and other info about the product. The application for de-icing is twice that of anti-icing though, 40-60 gallons per lane mile.

[SNO]

Newbie on liquid here,

How much does 40 - 60 gallons of it cost?

[John P]

Hi All
Roady im not sure which seminar you went to but chances are if it was on Magic and Caliber i spoke about them.The Caliber product and Magic as a liquid will not melt 2 inches of snow.I have never said this and would never say it.What i probably did say was that both caliber treated salt and magic treated salt will melt 2 inches of snow.I believe this is where the confusion lays.Liquids by them selves are purely used to keep the snow and ice from bonding to the pavement.You can melt 2,3,4,even 5 inches of snow with liquids if you want ,but the volume of liquids you would need would be huge and costly. That being said here is the skinny on both products.
Caliber at a rate of 1 gallon per 700 sq ft is how it should be used in a pretreatment application to keep the snow and ice from bonding to the pavement.If you want melting of the snow and ice you are wasting your time as this will not happen.Our humidity levels are too high here in the east.
Cailber works well as a deicer after the snow has been plowed off and hard pack remains.Cailber will not melt 2 inches snow.
Magic at a rate of 1 galloon per 1500 sq ft is how it should be used in pretreatment application to keep the snow and ice from bonding to the pavement.Again expecting Magic like caliber to melt 2 inches of snow its not gonna happen.You need too spray your salt with Magic or Caliber m2000 if you want to melt snow period.
There is some educating that needs to be done when using liquids they are not miracle workers,but rather another tool in your tool box to fight snow and ice.You have misunderstood what i was saying about what liquids will do and what treated salt with these liquids can do.Dont give up on them just try them in this manner i have explained and thyen expect the results i have sted here.Liquids keep the snow from sticking period,treated salt with caliber or magic can burn through 2 inches of snow.
Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions or if i can clear up any confusion
John Parker
Taconic Maintenance Inc
845-485-4200

[blawn]

we pay about $2.00 per gal m1000 delivered 1000 gal+ or 1.50 picked up in toledo













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[SNO]

Who is selling it in Toledo?

[JMac]

I know this is old, but as I read through, I cant help but wonder... will a liquid pretreatment alow you to skip a post plowing solid application? If so, under what conditions do you find this scenario to work best?