Insurance debate!

[Snoworks]

Ok, since Mick brought this up in anouther thread, I thought it would be a good idea to review and discuss in a seperate topic.

Quote by Mick - "My agent said my regular vehicle insurance is all I need for plowing."


I had State Farm as my insurance provider for 9 years and just switched to Allstate.

Keep in mind about 95% of my snowplowing work is residential!

I have plowed for 10 years with as many as 6 trucks. During that time, I was always told that my carrier would cover ANY damages, if I was plowing residential accounts. The agent said "as long as I was not doing commercial work, it did not matter"; This question would be asked every couple of years, and this was the repeated statement.

They even claimed that any other driver would be covered, even when/while/or in route during a snowplowing event. My old agent stated that this was due to the # of times the driver would be using the truck. Since we only get around 10 snowfalls a year, the insurance company stated they did not have a problem covering any driver due to the avr. # of times using the truck. Something about normal insurance covering occasional, other users, and this would never be a factor.

After 10 years of coverage, I have had three minor damage claims that were submitted to my insurer.

2 - Were garage doors, that the insurance company said they would pay for. Both were hit by employees. I chose to fix the garages myself.

1 - Was an automobile accident that one of my drivers got into. He was hauling salt from the supplier, and was following to close to anouther car. When the car stopped, he turned to avoid it, and sideswiped the entire length. Then the trailer took out the rear bumper, rear quarterpanel and door. The damages were around $4000.00. They knew who was driving, and new what we were hauling salt. They did not say a word, and paid the claim.

When I switched to Allstate, due to my cousin getting into the business, he basically told me the same story that State Farm did.
I even asked him to double check, and he came back to me with the same answer.

I have checked into commercial insurance for covering all my trucks. It would put me somewhere over $25,000. a year for coverage. I did pay $2,500.00 last year on my commercial truck for comp. & collision.

Any one else have the same experiences. All comments are welcome.

Chuck B.

[Mick]

This is from the Small Business Admin. Scroll down to "Insurance".
http://www.sba.gov/starting_business/startup/guide4.html#busins

This is from a general insurance website: insured.com . Landscaping insurance needs were as close to Snowplowing as I could find.

http://info.insure.com/business/smallbiztool.cfm

[D&T Repair]

As a beginning snow "manager" :) I am soooooo confused about insurance policies. Everyone tells me a different story it seems.
All that I gathered is that :
I don't need commercial insurance if I don't advertise on my truck.
(as stated by my insurance carrier)

?????

David

[Mick]

My take on insurance:

If you accept pay in any form for service (ie: snowplowing) you are holding yourself out as a professional. You are also in "business" as a snowplower. Therefore, you are liable for any damage done by you or as a result of your actions or inactions. If you do damage to anything or anyone while in the act of plowing, you will consider whether to submit a claim to your vehicle insurance. The insurance company is not in business to lose money. Therefore, they will examine your policy to see if you are "covered". If you were in the act of conducting "business" with your vehicle, the insurance company will want to see a clause that this is a covered activity. Hence: Commercial Vehicle Insurance.

The second way a claim may be made against you is if you complete your business (plowing, salting, sanding etc). Some injury occurs (most common is someone slips and falls on an area you plowed or were responsible to plow). Who is responsible for making the damage, hospital bills etc? Everyone involved from the building owner, to the person holding the lease, to the company who was contracted to plow and to the guy who actually did the plowing will all be named in the lawsuit. Then the judge will decide if any of them are not potentially liable and be removed from the suit. Now, anyone named in the lawsuit will share in any damages awarded. If you have General Liability insurance (which listed snowplowing as your business) - good. If not - you're still liable and the persons awarded damages can now put a claim against any variety of your property, depending on the state's law.

There are other ways of being sued, but those are the main two.

Of course, you could just take everyone's word that they will never sue you.

[KenP]

Chuck, are you ever at a loss for words????:D

[Snoworks]

Thanks for the replies.

As for liability insurance, I do have coverage. So this should be covering any slip-fall-claim, etc., regardless of residential or commercial work.

I will look at my comp/coll. policy, to see if I can find any other info.

Does anyone else that only does residential plowing, carry commercial comp and coll. coverage? If so, what are you paying in premiums.

Chuck B.

[WoofsPlow]

I just got a commercial vehicle policy and snowplowing liability coverage policy. It took me 2 weeks to find someone to write the policy - nobody wanted anything to do with it. Progressive insurance is carrying the policy. It is a 6 month policy and cost me $670. Liaibility coverage only, no comp/collision.

[Adams Plowing]

Im paying about $360 for the GL and around $300 a month for commers ins on the 2 trucks

[CNY Joe]

I paying around $1400 per year for GL and Comm. Ins. thru Farm Family for both trucks

[Satz28]

I just picked up my GL policy from my State Farm agent late this afternoon, and got a copy of the Cert of Ins that was faxed to the company that I'm subbing.

The type of policy indicates "contractors", but no where on either document does it states "snow plowing."

Do I need to have either document list snow plowing as the type of operation?

[Mick]

Originally posted by Satz28
I just picked up my GL policy from my State Farm agent late this afternoon, and got a copy of the Cert of Ins that was faxed to the company that I'm subbing.

The type of policy indicates "contractors", but no where on either document does it states "snow plowing."

Do I need to have either document list snow plowing as the type of operation?

Yes. Your "Policy Type" is something similar to : " Small Contractors Policy Declaration" This should list somewhere on the form the "Classification" which is the type of business you are covered for contracting. It may be one, such as Landscaping or more, such as Landscaping and Snowplowing. Your premium will be based on the Classification(s). For instance, snowplowing is more than landscaping so if you have both listed, your premium is based on landscaping for part of the year and snowplowing for the other part.

[Satz28]

When I asked my questions yesterday, I had not revieced the complete insurance package from my agent. Today, in the mail was the complete package.

There is a page tiltled "Schedule of Opererations" On that page it can list different types of contractor operations.

The description listed is "Snow removal from private streets, driveways or parking lots (includes street cleaning)"

I guess I should have waited for all of the information to show up before I opened up my mouth.




:rolleyes:

[Got Snow?]

Quote by Mick - "My agent said my regular vehicle insurance is all I need for plowing."


just curious if you carry a GL?

wouldn't commercial auto insurance cover a "slip and fall" or similar accident since you were in the truck?

[Mick]

Originally posted by Got Snow?
Quote by Mick - "My agent said my regular vehicle insurance is all I need for plowing."


just curious if you carry a GL?

wouldn't commercial auto insurance cover a "slip and fall" or similar accident since you were in the truck?

Yes, I carry both Commercial Vehicle and General Liability Insurance. "Slip and Fall" refers to someone else who gets injured on a place you are responsible for clearing. No, your vehicle insurance will not cover that.

[Assured Services]

How Much did State Farm quote you for your GL??

[Satz28]

State Farm contractors GL$565/year with Special Form 3 operations. (snow plowing)

[Greg H]

Hi Guys, Great Site. I'm going thru State Farm for my GL this year. I was curious how much ins. is provided for $560. ex. 500,00? 1 million? I'm waiting on a quote, I would like to see if they are consistant or just pull a number out of a hat:) Thanks. This site sure helps. Greg

[Satz28]

Coverages are as follows:

$1M Business Liability
$2M Products-completed operations
$2M General aggregate

$500 deductible

Also covers business property and buildings

[Snoworks]

Just thought I would bring this back up to the top.

Anyone got phone #'s to Erie or Farm Family?

Chuck B.

[Adams Plowing]

heres a number to my erie agent... if nothing else he can put you in contact with an agent closer to you...

814-459-4380

[jeffl]

This is an interesting topic to me. I was doing mostly residential drives last year, but have tentatively picked up a Doctors office, Insurance Agency (hah) and a gas station. The doctor and the Insurance Agency wants to see a copy of my GL certificate. I don't have one as of yet. I use my personal vehicle solely for plowing right now. I have a construction business also and was looking to add it to that through Harleysville to cover me, but they are not taking anyone new this year. My auto agent, Allstate says they do not cover snow plowing period. That must be an additional policy. Right now I stand to lose alot of business if I can't find a carrier in Southern NJ. I just find it odd that others who have Allstate can be covered for plowing where I was told I could not be covered. Oh well, not much I can do now.

Snowing pretty good here now and more on the way!
Jeff

[Mick]

Since this thread keeps coming back up and I'm quoted in several posts as saying "My agent said my regular vehicle insurance is all I need for plowing", I need to clarify that that is not me saying that - that's actually me quoting someone else. Then I make the point that this is not accurate. Again - regular vehicle insurance WILL NOT cover commercial snow plowing. At least not in my area.

I just talked with my commercial insurance agent again yesterday and clarified several points. The main point here is that insurance issues are specific to State and even area within a State. For instance - my GL policy specifies Residential. The agent has gone to the underwriter and determined that for me this would include schools, private roads, apartments, condominiums and libraries. It would not include retail stores, office complexes or public streets. Three years ago, I was limited to a 25 mile radius of my main base of operations (my house). This year there is no limit in range of operations.

When I begin to include retail and office buildings, I should expect the rate to increase be 2-300%.

For subs - I need to get a certificate of insurance for both the Commercial Vehicle and the General Liability.

On a seperate issue, I asked what happens if I plow something for which I'm not insured (ie: plow a convenience store on a Residential policy). Answer - they will likely pay the claim since I'm insured for liability. BUT - expect that they would send a notice of "non-renewal" since "that was more exposure to liability than they had contracted for".

Bottom line - check with your agent as conditions, requirements etc vary from State to State. From reading above, it looks like that's what's happening. People are getting different answers, but they live in different states.

[Chuck Smith]

It certainly does vary from State to State. I had State Farm for my auto policy. It was on the same policy as my other truck. It was listed as "Non - farm business use Utility Vehicle". I told my agent I did landscaping and Snowplowing. I paid $1400 a year for just the "utility vehicle". I asked if it mattered that I had the plow on the truck, and the answer was no. If I hit something with the plow, then my auto policy would cover that.

I asked about GL insurance, and he said State Farm does not offer it in NJ.

So I got it from another agent, and it was $3000 for 6 months, for 2 trucks! That was back in 1999. I can only imagine how much it would be now....

~Chuck

[Adams Plowing]

state farm is who i use for my auto policy... the told me that they wernt writing snowplowing coverage anymore due to the 1000 to 1 loss rate they were adverageing... thats why i went with erie... they seem to be the cheapest out there...

[4evergreenlawns]

IMO and experience with insurance claims (not claims against me but claims I handle doing risk managment while working corporate), if it is not written down it is not going to be covered.

Any FORESEEABLE loss can and will be passed onto the contractor. All agents are great guys and gals. But they are not the ones paying out when the claim comes in. If they want to tell you they called the underwritter and they said no problem they will cover it, than an ammended to the policy should be no problem. Just ask for a copy of the ammendment from the underwritter per that conversation. After all that is what they do right, is write policy, if we could go on someones word why would any insurance policy need to be 8 pages long. There is a saying, S**t in one hand, want in the other.

Although we have heard about several claims adverted, good documents, digital pictures, contract wording, and that is to be commended we do not hear about all the claims covered where there is nothing passed onto the insured.

There are way too many personal injury lawyers just waiting for the slip and fall to walk in the door, just look in phone book. When I was working corporate, our insurance carrier, (not going to name them) would pay out up to $10,000.00 plus all medical cost on a slip and fall at the first notice of a claim and that was mid 1990's.

On commercial properties I can not see why anyone would want to plow without having G/L insurance muchless a client allowing you to plow without a COI in hand. Even when you are doing the job right we all know you can not control the weather and when there is a high level of foot traffic and/or vehicle traffic accidents are going to happen either soon or later.

I am sure that most anyone doing commercial work will say two items that are a MUST before you ever drop the blade or spreading a grain of salt. 1) a signed contact (not just a "OK, looks good. You got the job" after they looked at your contract) and 2) valid and ample insurance coverage for the type of work site you are servicing.


Lastly, from the lenght of this post can you tell we have had no SNOW here in the Chicago area as of yet, and still having air temps in the 40's.

[GreenQuest Lawn]

I will have to do some more investgating for insurance when my policy runs out.

I have Larsons (safeco)

They informed me this year that my GL policy DID not cover Slip and fall:confused:

They told me unless I put THEIR wording in my contract I would have to pay another $600 per year.

This is on top of the Over $2000 I pay now for my lawn care and snowplowing, Inland marine, ect.

I am going broke paying out over $200 per month all year. Now I know I pay more because I am a pesticide application company as well as lawn care but the vehicle policy (1mil) alone is over $1700 per year.

I was told that Companies like State farm may or may not cover a liability claim.

I don't know I am confused, I TOLD LArsons that I wanted to be completly covered for all aspects, then they through this at me. This was also after I had already agreed to my yearly insurance price.

Idon't know....I AM SO CONFUSED:headwall

[Adams Plowing]

i think i would definatly shop around for a new carrier... i wouldnt doubt the thing about state farm they told me they wernt covering slip/fall stuff when i called them looking for a policy this year...

[Snoworks]

Well I almost let the insurance carriers get the best of me, the last month or two. Today I signed up with American Family Insurance. Coverages are as follows:

$1M Business Liability
$2M Products-completed operations
$2M General aggregate

$500 deductible = $465.00 a year

$1M commercial auto insurance with riders for front plow, rear plow and Salter = $1509.00 for the year

This is the cheapest I have ever paid for one truck, and these are the highest limits I have ever had. I am still in shock, the cheapest quote before this one was $8,800.00 with WC., so about $6,000 vs. $2,000.00.

Chuck B.

[CPSS]

wouldn't commercial auto insurance cover a "slip and fall" or similar accident since you were in the truck?


Some points to remember:

"Regular" auto policy may pay for some accidents, such as the guy hauling salt stated. They probably will NOT pay a large claim if their insurance investigator finds out that you were engaged in commercial operations. They will simply deny coverage, and walk away. It's legal, and it happens. If you're not fully truthfull on the application regarding the useage, its their right to deny coverage.

"Commercial" auto policy will cover almost any accident or damage you cause. It does not cover anything that happens after you leave the job.

"Completed Operations" can be a part of your general Liability policy. I say "can be" because it's extra. Usually its included, but might not be. This is the policy thats a "MUST". Its the policy that covers you when grandma slips on the recently plowed driveway and breaks her hip. Any personal injury attorney would jump on this case. Now I know, you did a real good job plowing, and that it's normal for a little snow and ice to remain after your done, but the lawyer will say that if you did a real good job she wouldn't have fallen. This policy will pay for your defense, all court costs, and any judgments against you.

If you don't have the Completed Operations General Liability insurance, you are on your own. Even if your right, you still pay your own attorney.

Be carefull when your agent says "don't worry, your covered" ask for it in writing. Then when you do get sued you know the insurance company, not the agent, will stand by you.

[ih82plow]

You know its funny how so many guys have contacted there insurance agent and all have different answers.

Any time you are using your property for commerce.then you must have a rider covering your property for the commerce your providing.

You really have to write a letter to your insurance under writer or carrier and ask then to define the policy so you can understand .from that you highlight the language in the policy so you know why your not covered.I can read a policy and understand I am covered for every thing then read 4 pages into it and then find out I am covered for nothing,

Its all in the wording.But for sure if you dont have a rider for plowing your not covered.

[T-Zab]

Hey Chuck,
Doe's this policy cover commercial snowplowing or strickly residential ?
Thanks
Todd

[CPSS]

Originally posted by T-Zab
Hey Chuck,
Doe's this policy cover commercial snowplowing or strickly residential ?
Thanks
Todd

Todd, don't get confused by the terms. In most areas "commercial snowplowing" refers to snow plowing for money, as opposed to plowing your own driveway, or mabey your neighbors driveway. Most insurance companys don't really care if you are plowing driveways or parking lots, they are concerned if you are doing it for profit.

Years ago my agent asked me the same question regarding my plowing. He assumed "commercial snowplowing" referred to plowing businesses or parking lots. When he clarified the question with the company, he found out they were inquiring if the snowplowing was for profit.

[Snoworks]

TZab,

CPSS answered your question for me. The insurance provides coverage for both residential and commercial properties.

Chuck B.