Salting when snow changes to rain

[Mustang]

How do you guys handles salting when the snow changes to rain? This is what is supposed to happen for us tomorrow. I've been on a bunch of weather sites and I still can't pinpoint how much rain we are supposed to get after it changes over (weather reports on the weekend are horrible!). Our snow acumulations are expected to be 3-7 inches. I'm not expecting enough rain to melt all the snow but I'm sure some of our customers are going to say skip the salt and let the rain melt what the salt normally would. I'm just afraid the rain will then freeze back up over night and make the place a skating rink. If you salt in the rain is it effective? How much rain will just wash away the salt so it does nothing? BTW, I'm in New York City. Thanks.

[apgarconstruction]

I would stay salt anyway like you normally would, I don't think we are going to get major rain after it changes over. looks like just ending with drizzle. and if it refreezes, then you gotta salt again. can't assume it's going to wash away with rain. if it doesn't then you are liable for unsafe conditions.

[jt5019]

The rain probably will freeze back up overnight.If there is a lot of rain still to come (check the radar), i would wait and see how much melts.If its almost over chances are you are still gonna have to salt.Either way if the temps drop below freezing overnight you will most likely have to salt anyways.I doubt it will dry up before nighttime with this one.You are the contractor if you feel conditions arent safe enough apply salt ..its your butt that gets screwed if someone slips..

[digger242j]

Depending on where you're getting your weather information, you may be able to get an hour by hour forecast of what the temps will be. I'd have to say that if it's forecast to go back below freezing sometime soon after the rain has ended you should probably consider making a second visit, just to salt. I see no point in salting pavement that's just going to get rained on, but if it's still wet once the sun goes down and the temps drop, you'll have ice.

Here around Pittsburgh they're calling for 1-2", then it's supposed to rain and get up to around 40 tonight, and go to 50 tomorrow. I may not even have to go out at all...

[BRL]

Mustang, can't remember exactly where you said you are in there. With this particular storm, the bulk of the precip where you are will fall as snow, the remaining rain will be light in nature most likely (unless you are on the coastal side, there the warm air might mix in more so & quicker). There will also be the possibility for a decent amount of sleet or freezing rain (rain that falls & then freezes on contact with the below 32 degree ground, the ground doesn't warm up as fast as the air). So in this case, after you plow I would salt like normal, as even the rain may be delayed by a period of icing type conditions before a gradual change over to plain rain. You have to base your actions on the current conditions & the potential future conditions, not what may or may not happen. Its all a guess until it happens. We already know based on experience the forecasts are only right 50% of the time. So if you are comfortable with those odds then don't salt, if those odds don't sound so hot, act accordingly ;) Good luck.

[digger242j]

the potential future conditions, not what may or may not happen.

I'm sure that made sense when you typed it.... :confused:


:)

[BRL]

Yea I thought about that, but couldn't figure out how to explain it. What I meant was a real potential, like certain parameters will definitely exist in the weather forecasts that say you could have a certain situation. By what may or may not I meant it could rain tomorrow, and it could be sunny, or a customer "hears" rain in the cast, but doesn't really know what is going on like we pay attention lol. In this case the potential will exist for a period of icing, so I wouldn't just wait to see if the rain arrives (this question is actually moot at this point for this event for here & Mustang, he gonna plow & he gonna salt ;) ). In some areas, the temps are pretty much guaranteed to be rising fast & turn the event to rain. So in those areas the potential is that there will be a wash out vs an icy situation. Not sure if that helps to explain, but I kinda know what I mean at least :headwall :)

[Lawn Lad]

Now that the storm system came through... Mustang, how did you handle it?

I got regular updates from our weather service, made a game plan and contacted all the guys. Once i started driving around I changed it up.

We had snow on/off all day yesterday (Sunday) but nothing that was accumulating. I got out early with a salting during the day, air temps at 32 and pavement around 33/34. I figured if the pavement temps dropped the salt would buy me some time with the on/off flurries.

At about 3:30/3:45 pm the snow really picked up and started blowing. The pavement slowly started to slush/cover over. By 4:00 I was on the road and resalted the open businesses. By the time I was finished it was coming down pretty good. At 6:00 pm the roads were covered with 1/2" to 3/4". The forecast was for 1-2" by 8/9:00 pm after which the snow would turn to rain. We waited it out.

The original game plan was to wait to see how much snow we actually received and what the rain would do to it. With about .25" of rain predicted, I knew it wouldn't melt the snow. Temps were not going below 32, likely around 35. Not warm enough to melt the snow by morning in combo with the rain if we had more than 1" of snow. I thought we'd wait until about 2:00 am to get started allowing the rain to work it's magic.

By 10:00 pm the snow had changed to rain and we had heavy accumulations of slush everywhere. I called the guys out a little worried that a late start might not get us done in time for morning, particularly if we had to salt.

The guys started by 11:00 pm and starting to wrapped up between 2:00 and 3:30 am. The temps rose to nearly 40 degrees. The rain stopped around 12:30/1:00 am.

We did not need to salt this morning as the pavement was too warm and the air temps were up also. No real compacted ice from the slush on the commercials, some on residentials which we overlook.

Glad we cleared the snow so our customers didn't have slush. Lots not plowed by 6:00 am this morning still had plenty of slush to make things a little nasty while all lots plowed were black and wet.

I upped the time frame on the plowing from 2:00 am to 11:00 pm because the weather allowed me and it would also let me salt starting at 4:00 am if I needed to. I can put extra trucks on the road and be done salting all accounts by 6:00/6:30 am if we start at 4:00 am. At 10 pm I determined I would make the decision to salt "last minute" depending on the weather.

Mustang - the play by play here, though likely boring, gives the reasons behind what we did and how the decision must be made with many factors in mind. I don't know that you can call it one or days in advance. With snow, anything can happen and you have to be prepared. Don't back yourself into the corner. If I had stuck with my original game plan which seemed like a good idea at the time and the weather was colder and I had slippery areas, we would have been salting at 6:00 am and that may not have been enough time to let the salt work. Don't paint yourself into a corner if you can avoid it, leave some options open.

[Mustang]

Thanks for all the replies. We ended up salting 8 out of 10 accounts. I called all the property managers to see what they wanted to do. Only two properties said no. One is so small it's not a big deal and the other is a new property that seems to be very understanding and easy to work with so I didn't put up a fuss. We ended up with a little drizzle; no real rain to speak of. Everything did start melting thoughout the day. Later in the run I started stressing the salt. I was afraid all the water would turn to black ice overnight. By the end of our run I was rushing to get to the last couple of properties before there was nothing left to plow.:wink

BRL says "I kinda know what I mean at least".

That really clears things up!!!!:p

[Mark Oomkes]

Mustang, you have to know Bill, he's the kind of guy that wears shorts year round. :grinz

I'm with the other replies, our contract states plowing, salting, etc is done at our discretion and we make the call based on what the forecast is. Every once in awhile we're wrong, but we do the best we can. I would also rather err on the side of caution or safety and salt.

How's the forecast looking for Friday and Saturday?

[Mustang]

I would love to have contracts where I dictate the terms but that is not currently the case. I have six contracts with one property management firm that insists salting be left to the discretion of the property. My other four properties I have pretty much free reign.

There's talk about another potential storm for Friday into Saturday!!!!! Still up in the air but that's enough to keep me around. :(

[Mark Oomkes]

I understand, sometimes it is difficult to do what is best for everybody involved, but especially the contractor.

There is talk about a storm here Friday, but they should be able to handle it without me, if not, it's only a 5 hour drive in good weather. :grinz Sorry to hear that, I was hoping we could get together again and have a few drinks.