Lift Chains or cylinder?

[snowgm]

Several manufacturers have moved to non-chain style lifts. I've seen several reasons for why this is good or bad. What do you think?

Feel free to mark multiple choices (good and bad). Please try to restrict your vote to your personal experience.

Thanks

[snowgm]

You can also take part in a short comprehensive survey by e-mailing me at snowgm@hotmail.com.

Thanks,

[EZSnow]

I like my chain lift for several reasons.

1. I can adjust the range of travel. I don't do it but once a year, but I've done it, and I like to be able to do it. I like to get a very high lift, so I don't drag snow when backing out of a pile.

2. Because of the free uptravel, I feel I can stack better than direct-cylinder-lift plows. However, when trying to "push back" a pile, it wants to stack... 60/40 chains for me.

3. Bounce in transport... everyone who is selling a solid-lift plow tells you how little bounce there is during transport... so what? Unless I go mach 2 over the rough tracks by my house, my plow doesn't bounce that bad, and even so, it's doing less bouncing than the 2500# of salt in the back!

4. Breakdown- ie, busted hose, loss of fluid. Gimme a chain-lift any day. Run it into a pile, choke the chains down and drive it back to the shop. Blizzard has a pin setup that seems to adequately cover this issue, but I don't know about the others.

5. Negative- downpressure is not an option with a chain lift, though it has not become widely available in the direct-lift market, it's out there.

If I come up w/ any more, I'll let you know.
Derek

[snowplowjay]

Soooooo SnowGM

Since you are asking all of these technical and design questions I am very curious.............

What outfit are you working for???

Or are you an entrepreneur looking for new ideas????


Jay

[snowgm]

Top secret .:cool: .. Sorry I didn't give my whole song and dance again. I'm a 3rd party consultant working for a manufacturer.

Seriously though, I'm interested in whatever you guys can tell me about what you need. I don't want to steal your ideas, I just need to know what you love and hate about your plow.

Greg

[wyldman]

Direct lift or linkage.

Never come across one yet that won't stack as well,or go high enough.

No bouncing over RR tracks and having the plow come slamming down.

Downpressure is the way to go,like a Snoway.

You can still run it up a pile and pin the cyl to hold the plow up if it breaks.Snoways have a clamp on device to hold them up.

[Joey D]

Most plows have stops built into the frames so lifting height is a non issue. My vote is no chains.

[Crash935]

I would have to go with EZ on pretty much everything he stated. I have worked on pretty much every make and snoway is the only one i know of with a way to secure the plow in the raised position. I have seen non chain plows come into the shop with straps and chains wrapped around the blade in every possible configuration just to hold it up. I think hininkers linkage design is probably one of the worst that ive seen so far.

[bud16415]

Greg

I voted for no chains. Seeing as you are a design consultant and new to the forum and I have disclosed an invention here that I now have patent pending status with the USPTO.
I thought I would again share the link to the post that explains my invention for you and any other new members to read and think about.

I’m also took the time to read thru your posts and somehow missed the one where you are requesting information on the perfect plow design. I’ll reply to that one also this morning.

Bud


http://www.snowplowing-contractors.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3681

[snowgm]

Thanks Bud,

One of the hardest things about design (as you know) is the patent search, when you see all the neat ideas that someone else had (and can't use them) - including yours. People might think that plows are low-tech, but a 20 year old innovation in plow design is not that useful.

I've seen your work - definitely innvovative. Something like that would definitely be a "new" way to run a plow after maybe 70 years of the same old thing.

That's also why I'm asking for features that people want, and not ideas for how to implement them - that way I don't have worry about stealing ideas.

[paponte]

2. Because of the free uptravel, I feel I can stack better than direct-cylinder-lift plows. However, when trying to "push back" a pile, it wants to stack... 60/40 chains for me.

I would strongly dissagree with that statement. My BOSS with cylinder, lifts much higher than any fisher or western we have. I voted no chains for the reason that it is much nicer to transport, and you don't have to re adjust chains at all. Also about this "what is the cylinder breaks?". you in the same boat either way even with chains. You have to get it up a pile and chain it up either way. :)

[CT18fireman]

Lift height has nothing to do with a cylinder or chain. Lift heaight is determined by the distance between the A-frame mounting point and the stops on the lift frame and what truck it is on. No mater how much travel in the cylinder your upper height is determined by the stops and how long the A-frame is.

I don't have any bounce when transporting my properly adjusted chain lift blades.

If the cylinder fails the chain is there ready to be short chained. I too have seen people wrapping chains and straps around the a-frames of direct cylinder lift plows.

If you are not getting downpressure out of it then what is the point?

IMO the chain offers a bit more "slack" and thus safety when plowing. A direct cylinder is just that another direct "stiffer" connection that could break under a hard hit.

[TLS]

I've enjoyed the "tightness" of a cylinder lift since 1996. I have FULL lift and drop all the time.

On my older Meyer's, you would have to adjust the chain to gain lift or drop. There was no "ideal" setup.

I'm typing this line with one hand, as the other is knocking on wood......"I've never had a lift failure that required short chaining or strapping up the BOSS's" I hope I never will.

If it ever does, I'll just drop the plow and come back and fix it anyway.

[crashz]

The only negative of direct linkage that I can think of is that as the plow follows the contours of the ground, the lift cylinder is always moving. This increases wear of the hydraulic ram over time. The wear would probably be concentrated in the lower end of the lift cylinder too, eventually leaking and giving problems while stacking.

Probably not a concern to someone who updates their fleet regularly, but could be a concern if you plan on keeping the plow for many years.

[TLS]

The lift cylinders on my old truck were still fine. And they are from 1996

[JimL]

We have 20 or so meyer blades that are ready for service. Ive replaced a few chains now and then. Not a big deal nor expensive, I replace it with binder chain and they seem to last a long time. Some of the blades are almost 20 years old and i just don't think it is worth the extra $ to have another cylinder and hoses to maintain.... Chains worked fine for years for us, so why change...

[ratlover]

My fisher dosnt bounce? old school setups on the other trucks do but not the fisher or western

I think a bit more can go wrong with just a cylinder but it dosnt, I could care less one way or another actually. Wish all plows had down pressure though but I believe thats a patent thing.

If you work for fisher and western tell them to just copy bosses controler and get it over with. They made a better solution in the newer controlers but it still aint as good as bosses.

Also the "soft touch" and all the other crap the controler does. I under stand that it is designed to improve the life of the components and such but the controlers that do all the thinking piss me off. Like if you are scooped and you try to angle the blade left I wont work! if one wing comes to its stop it all stops, yes things shouldnt be fighting each other and all that.....who cares, i will replace a motor more regularly if it will allow me to make the decsions! If I hold the rais for 3 minutes more than likely I am doing it becasue thats what i want to do! if I burn something up then its my baby, quit having the controlers trying to out think me dam it! And the auto off, screw that.....if I want the controler off i will turn it off. You know how bad it pisses me off when i go hauling into a lot and try to drop the blade but it wont come on becuase it turned itself off and i have to hold the little bastard for a few seconds to turn it on?

Quit having the equipment trying to out think US!

Also on mounting systems. Make them such so when you tweak or tear stuff up things still go on or off fairly easy. JMO

Make it easy to grease stuff and easy to hose it all down at the power washer.

How bout painting the backs of the blades a flat color like flat black so light dont reflect off em so bad.

[CT18fireman]

Fisher did paint the backs black at one time. I remember my dad getting a new Fisher around 1985 with the back painted black and all the stickers on it.

[99TACX]

Originally posted by ratlover
My fisher dosnt bounce?

same here... there's something to be said about simplicity... :cool:

[TLS]

Ratlover,

Your Fisher don't bounce because it weighs 870lbs, not 5-600lbs like some smaller plows. :D

Actually, a chain lift is less simple than a cylinder lift.

There is no right or wrong way....it's what your used to. If you've never had a direct cylinder lift, you don't know how good it is.

Would I go back to a chain lift? .....sure. It's not like there is something wrong with a chain lift. It's just that I've had years of good luck with cylinder lifts, and see no drawback to them.

[wyldman]

Maybe you guys don't have the roads we do,or drive near as fast,but ALL chain lift plows will bounce,and it's quite harsh when they do.The only time they don't,is on certain models you can lift them up high enough to get them on the stops,so it has no where to go.

[CT18fireman]

If you lift the plow up so that it is against the stops as the plow chain should be adjusted to do (how plow manufacturers want the plow transported) then there is no way it will bounce.

As I said I have both light and heavy plows and awful New England roads and no bounce.

[wyldman]

If I set up my plows like that,it would slow me down.I need the stops cut off,or cut down enough to allow the plow to stack well.

I also like to have lots of droop,so when plowing up out of steep docks,or pushing in big steep entrances,the plow stays on the ground.

When lifted all the way up,I don't need the plow up too high,as it just blocks the rad,and the headlights.

When set up like this,your a long way from the stops,and the plow bounces,no way around it.

[CT18fireman]

Again this is why I think a chain / cylinder setup gives you more. By changing the placement of the cylinder top mount on the lift, chain length and where the chain mounts to the a-frame you can really maximize the amount of travel you have.

Fishers for example don't have anything that you could cut of, they limit up against the lift frame. I can stack to abount six feet, anything higher and its time for a machine anyway. If setup right with the a-frame level and the chain so that they limit just before the cylinder maxes, there will still be plenty of downtravel.

I just jacked the front end of my truck at the axle and was up near 20" before the blade started to lift off the ground. The blade was at quite a severe down angle, more then I have seen in any drive. Cars would have gotten high centered.

If there is a cooling system problem with the plow on then the truck needs some kind of service. Never understood why people have issues here. I see no difference in cooling temps, with plow on or off.

The only manufacturer with high enough light mountings IMO was Western, although Meyere did sell and extension kit. We raise the mountings on all the lights. Most plow setups on Fords, the lights are barely higher then the stock lights.

[snowgm]

Wyldman,
So you're saying that you want to blade to lift higher in normal operation than you would have it for transport, correct? So stops would not be a solution for you.

I wonder how many other people are in the same position. I've heard a lot of people say they want to have a longer range of travel (in part so they can droop more).

[CT18fireman]

You will need much longer cylinders or scissor type lifts in a direct cylinder to get much more travel, without losing lift force.

[wyldman]

Originally posted by snowgm
Wyldman,
So you're saying that you want to blade to lift higher in normal operation than you would have it for transport, correct? So stops would not be a solution for you.

I wonder how many other people are in the same position. I've heard a lot of people say they want to have a longer range of travel (in part so they can droop more).

Yes,that is correct.You need the height when stacking.When transporting,you don't need it high at all,or as high.Otherwise it blocks the plowlights and airflow.

It is nice to have lots of droop,otherwise the plow comes off the ground at times.

[EZSnow]

Droop, yes- but you also want to be able to lift it up high so you can back out of a pile without dragging half a yard of snow back onto your cleanly plowed lot!

I have my chains adjusted to a point where my plow will lift as high as possible while still allowing enough droop to cover the terrain at all my accounts. I'd really like to shorten it up one more linkfor backing out of piles, but my dealer already yelled at me for having it too short! Something about bottoming out the lift being hard on the cylinder...

[ratlover]

My plow lifts to the stops(well the fram, it dosnt have stops per se)

I dont do much stacking and if I do its not very high though.

Now the conventional meyers and westerns we got :eek:

[bud16415]

How much effect do you guys find attack angle has on stacking? As the blade comes up it also lays back some. That is good as you drive into the pile you get the combined effect of lift plus pushing the top of the pile back. I’m only stacking 5 feet high but then again my plow full up is just 9 inches off the ground. I think the reason I can do this is because my push frame is 6 feet long and when I go up the 9 inches my attack angle only changes slightly. That combined with the plow being in float position I never seem to drag off the pile. What would be ideal would be a trapezoidal 4 arm link arrangement that would let the blade lay forward as its lifted to keep the blade at the perfect angle for stacking. I have seen patents for this arrangement but I don’t think it ever caught on for snowplows even though it’s used in some of the bigger equipment. A true parallelogram linkage would keep the blade attack angle constant. I don’t think that’s what is called for stacking.

Bud

Good to see you back Greg. How’s Sam doing?

[CT18fireman]

You are starting to add a lot of weight that is not actually used in plowing (not in blade width or height) Not good for front ends.

[wyldman]

To stack or pile snow effectively,you need the blade to lay back,and angle upwards,to push snow up the pile.If the blade doesn't come up high enough,then it's difficult.

[CT18fireman]

I haven't really seen a BLizzard stack, I assume it would be more like a pusher box and that would work well.

Personally I think the straight blade stacks better then our V. Sure the V can scoop the snow in but in scoop it seems to "max" out before the straight blade. If we straighten the wings it is about equal to the straight blade.

Just my expierence.

As I have said before there is no "perfect" design.

[bud16415]

wyldman
“To stack or pile snow effectively,you need the blade to lay back,and angle upwards,to push snow up the pile.If the blade doesn't come up high enough,then it's difficult.”
That was kind of my point Chris. As you keep making the blade go higher that’s a good thing but at some point I think you start loosing what you gained in height because of the blade laying back to far. And the angle of the pile becomes steep and then you are done. Like EZsnow said you start dragging the pile back. I know I could go much higher than 5 foot if I wanted to drive onto the pile but that’s where I stop. Just to easy to get hung up. I could see a front pivoted mount being able to stack 10 or 12 feet high if the attack angle stayed less. I’m not sure what angle for the pile face would be best. I guess that would depend on the type of snow also.

Bud

[CT18fireman]

The length of the a-frame plays a prts as well. Still I think trying to stack over 6ft is making an unrealistice demand on the plow and truck. Can it be done? Yes but there is better equipment for stacking.

[bud16415]

Jesse

When you stack with the V do you just use the V to scoop the snow and then do your stacking with the blade straight? As many V’s as I see around I never seem to catch any stacking to see how they do it.

Bud

[CT18fireman]

Usually we leave in it scoop all the way (I am not primary driver on that truck) What we have noticed is that if we bring it back to straight it does stack better. This creates extra steps though as we must cycle between scoop and straight.

I think a Blizzard would probably work better in scoop but need input from John or Pelican.

[TLS]

Stacking with a Vee in the Scoop postition is what it's VERY good at. Easy to make 8'+ piles in scoop mode. You cant stack nearly as high with it straight.

[John DiMartino]

I agree that the V has been best for me for stacking height.ive never had a plow that stacked higher,easier than my Boss 9'2"V. I swear it looked like a loder was in there,and i wasnt trying to make them big it didnt require any effort.The piles were easily 8 ft without any effort. The 810 is a different animal,it doesnt stack as high,but its carrying a lot more snow in one shot.The 810 carries so much ive had the hood covered in 2-3 ft snow.ive had to get out and shovel off the hood so i could see.Once you hit a pile with an 810,and the plow starts to ride up,usually the scooped wings fold back to straight,giving you a 10ft straight blade,like i said its a lot of snow. Dont forget the 810 is very heavy ,it doesnt just run up the pile like a western pro plow, it bulldozes it first then eventually once it hits something frozen ,or is totally overwhelmed with snow,itll trip or run up it.The big last storm we had 14" of powder, the plow was full,and rolling over the top,only then would it ride up the piles pretty easy.
snow gm,give me a cylinder anyday,all mine have outeperfromed the chain setup,they have more travel and mine have been faster,like wyldman said,the stops get the torch,so the chain setups bounce bad.
Phillip , i agree 100% with you on the fisher/western V controllers, they are a joke. When i bought my MVP i never even looked at the controller,if i had tried it i would have passed.The fact that it turns itself off is dangerous to me. For your next plow,consider the blizzard 810, the controller,and plow is much better.

[ratlover]

Originally posted by John DiMartino
For your next plow,consider the blizzard 810, the controller,and plow is much better.

Still trying to justify offloading my plow with a season and a 1/2 on it even though it functions perfectly well ;) I have width envy:eek: :o :( LOL :D

[Adams Plowing]

Originally posted by JimL
We have 20 or so meyer blades that are ready for service. Ive replaced a few chains now and then. Not a big deal nor expensive, I replace it with binder chain and they seem to last a long time. Some of the blades are almost 20 years old and i just don't think it is worth the extra $ to have another cylinder and hoses to maintain.... Chains worked fine for years for us, so why change...

Take a look at the 20 or so blades you have Look up the chains to where they mount to the hook then look under that plate you'll find a cylinder that lifts that plate. so by using a direct cylinder you arent adding more stuff your actually taking away the chains and lift plate that they hook too... so thereby making less things that can go wrong...

[lorentzlawnsnow]

voted good. but the only bad thing i would have added is you can't run it into a pile and chain it up for transport when it breaks.

[toronto2]

I don't know about you guys but our four year old boss 8 foot super out pushes,scrapes and stacks anything the guys around our town have. Once again back to the issue about not being able to short chain in a break down if you have the Boss emergency kit it has a strap in it to hold the plow up thank god never had to use it. I vote for cylinder lift. We had the myers berfore won;t go back there no offense just my opion for what its worth.If we have to stack anything higher than 6 feet just go get the backhoe

[bowtytek]

I am currently planning on new plow for next year and was worried about "what if the cylinder breaks...", so I was looking at chain lifts only. Then found out if you disconnect the lift cylinder on one end, you could lift and secure the blade to transport to shop. I am currently using a chain lift conventional Diamond and, this time of year especially over the frost heaves, unless you set it up to be tight against the plow frame, it bounces and comes down hard no matter what speed. This got me looking at cylinder lifts for this reason. Now lift setup isn't going to be the primary reason to which plow I get. Still don't have a preference as I have never used a cylinder lift on a regular basis, only know what I have read and seen in action.

[wolcottseptic]

i second the flat black blade backs and i also the power staying on always until you turn it off....its super annoying to turn ur truck off without turnin off the plow then havin to turn it back on

[Tom Comfort]

never broke a cylinder or had a bad leak
but we have had electrical failure and just used a come-a-long to winch it
up for road travel (with extra chain to secure)
think it is 8 yrs old by now
tc