How much SALT could a GMC Carry if a GMC could carry...

[Snowboy]

How much salt can you carry in your truck. I have a 3/4 Ton GMC short Box and next year i might get into plowing and salting on my own.

I work for a company now and we have a GMC 3500 SRW diesel with a monroe v salter in it and usually we load it up right to the top and then some with salt. When we ran out of salt from local salt yards last year the guy who plows went to another site that was maybe an hours drive.

So for my truck seeing as a yard of salt is usually 2200 lbs aka a ton of salt. My salter would be capable of carrying 2 yards but can my truck carry that ?

Do i have the weight ratio correct a yard is aka as 1 ton ? Thats 4400 lbs in the back of my truck plus a 700lb salter thats alot of weight. omg

A 3500 ok it can take more then a ton just like a 2500 can take 1 ton.

Sorry huge posting... I have allot to say...

Help a Brotha out would ya :)

[snonut12]

Sound like it may be pushing it over the limit, but here is how you can figure out how much your truck rear end can legally carry. Drive your truck (unloaded) to a scale and weight only the rear axle and make note of it. Then look at the door jamb for RAWR and subtract the difference. There, you will know how much load you can carry on rear of truck legally, but I know that alot of people overload it. It probably would be ok to overload just a bit for a short period of time, but not too much. I think that manufacturers usually would put in a fudge factor when calculating the axle rating. Just be careful. Remember that braking distane is also increased too.

[Snowboy]

The place's i want to plow next year are all 10mins maybe 15 mins drive in snow weather. I can get salt locally for a higher price then going 40 mins on Hiways and city streets $23 more locally for salt.

the GWVR is 8800 around that mark. I havent weighted the ass end yet.

So pay more for salt do more trips for salt but not as much stress on the truck.

You keep the plow on to counter balance the weight of the salt or is that too heavy a Fisher 8.5 V ?

Dave..

[Alan]

My 88, K3500 weighs in at around 7700 without the plow and 8600 with both plow and spreader. With only an 8600lb GVW I'm just about overloaded before I load up. I just went through some of last years slips and the highest I found was 11,480.

Maybe it's not legal, but you do what ya gotta do. Under 11K the truck doesn't feel real bad, but once you get over the you can tell it's just not happy.

Right now I'm running 235/85R16 E range tires. I checked my rear axle weight and with about 10500 on I'm very close to tire capacity. I think there are E rated 265s made so when I need new rubber I'll give them a try.

I tried to find 19.5" wheels with the 8 hole pattern to fit my hubs, that would get me past the tire capacity problem. No luck on that quest though.

[Snowboy]

Alan

I got stock size rubbers. 245/75/R16 and they are E ply i know that cuz trying to pump them up at a gas station takes an hour.. I give in after 10 mins thou and say screw it..

Do you run your tires at 80PSI with the plow and salter on the truck ?

My door pannel says 65 front and 80 rear.. Now thats if i have a load in the back which i usuly dont. I keep the back and front at 70ish usualy and it rides like a hay wagon cuz of now weight in the back except the tailgate. Amazing how much the gate makes a diffence when you have it off the back bounces around on rail way tracks and bumps.

[Alan]

I inflate to whatever the maximum pressure is on the tire sidewall, all the time, front and rear. I never know when I'm going to load the truck heavy and absolutely hate to run on soft tires. By going maximum pressure I'm getting all the capacity the tire is capable of.

[wyldman]

You gotta be careful with a pickup,as you don't have much legal weight carrying capacity left,even worse if you have a plow on.

While the truck will most likely carry the weight,MTO will nail you big time.They have run biltzes every winter now looking just for overloaded pickups.That why I use bigger trucks for salt,and you see so many F450,and 550's now,as they can carry more material,and still be legal.

[ratlover]

19.5's for a SRW are out there but are pretty costly.....

http://www.ricksontruck.com/

I hear there is another co called aap that has em? I think alcoa is making or will be making them soon

[Snowboy]

Originally posted by wyldman
You gotta be careful with a pickup,as you don't have much legal weight carrying capacity left,even worse if you have a plow on.

Hey Chris i am not so worried about MTO because i dont plan on doing much Hi Way drive unless i have to go to Fransini Bros's at Cawthra.

I would like to stick to my home base area to start out next year.

Internatinal Landscapeing is selling salt, well treated salt. depending on how much they charge i would buy from them or Petrie's & Childs. Both places are 15 to 20 mins tops and i have to travel side streets or i can go straight down Trafalgar to lower base line 15 km tops from my house. I havent seen MTO on Trafalgar rd ever.

I dont want to put allot of weight on my truck and mess it up as its a personal truck.


So then paying $20 more for salt and beeing able to take more with me is better then paying a $500 fine to MTO ?

[Lawngodfather]

Your truck can carry up to what your plates say. That will make you illegal going over them.

A ¾ ton can carry 2 tons of salt and the v box safely.

A 1 ton can carry 2¼ tons safely.

I've weighed my 3/4 ton in at well over 12,000# fully dressed fully loaded. My plates limit me to BL18--18,000 GCVW beyond local. Now we all know a ¾ton truck cannot handle that much weight, but within reason it can hold 2-2½ tons of salt.

[wyldman]

Around here the MTO uses the door sticker for legal weights.I have my truck registered for more,but if I'm over the GVWR,or any of the axle weights,they will write me up.Big $$$.

[John Banks]

Wyldman is right. Trust me, you don't want to get an overweight fine. I did. It was not cheap, nor was it convenient. The officer made me dump about half of my load, so I was legal, besides issuing me a ticket, based on some formula that even he did not know how it was derived, for over $700.00. He told me I could go to court and they would most likely cut it in half. Sure enough I showed up and they cut it in half, but I also lost about 5 hours of time.

[Lawngodfather]

If you can't go over the door sticker you shouldn't be able to register higher than it.

Around here we can go to what the plates say, but we can also register a ¾ton for 24,000 gvw.

[diginahole]

If you want to put salt on that vehicle be prepared to be stopped by the truck cops. There are scales both east and westbound at Trefalgar on the 401, therefore it is safe to assume they will be looking for scale jumpers in the vicinity. Vehicles registered over 4500 kg require annual and daily saftey inspections. You will also require a CVOR number. Once your truck is registered over 4500 kg it is a commercial vehicle and every minute you drive it counts as on duty. MTO conducts facility audits to inspect your records for times as well as maintenance. Still want to put salt on that 3/4 ton truck? All these rules still apply if your truck weighs in over 4500 even if it isn't licenced for it.

[nben]

Originally posted by Lawngodfather
If you can't go over the door sticker you shouldn't be able to register higher than it.

Here in Maine, we cannot go over the door sticker either. That is what the truck was designed to carry safely. We have to register the trucks to include trailers too (GCVW). For example, our HD3500's have a door sticker that states 6000 lbs for the front axle, 10000 lbs for the rear, but not to exceed 15000 total. We frequently haul 10000 lbs trailers, so the trucks are registered for 25000 lbs. If the trucks themselves weigh over 15000, we are illegal (although most 800 units are ok with +10%).

Another thing in Maine that they are big on is commercial inspection stickers and trailer inspection stickers. They are a hassle, but a great tool to keep everyone on the road safe.

[cutntrim]

I keep missing out on the MTO lecture at my local Landscape Ontario chapter. Trucks rated over 4500kg need the commercial sticker. Is that GCVWR? Or GVWR?

My GVWR is 9200lbs or 4173kg so I don't have enough capacity to go over a GVWR of 4500kg even if I wanted to.

Before the end of the lawn season I weighed my truck with trailer and mowing equipment, and guys, and fuel and it came in just under 4500kg total.

Yesterday, going on my first salt run I loaded 2yds into my AirFlo stainless and weighed my truck with the Fisher 8'6" V on as well. Weighed in at 4940kg...too heavy.

Looks like I'll have to load up without the plow on, and even then limit myself to 1 - 1.5yds tops.

[Snowboy]

Originally posted by diginahole
If you want to put salt on that vehicle be prepared to be stopped by the truck cops. There are scales both east and westbound at Trefalgar on the 401, therefore it is safe to assume they will be looking for scale jumpers in the vicinity. Vehicles registered over 4500 kg require annual and daily saftey inspections. You will also require a CVOR number. Once your truck is registered over 4500 kg it is a commercial vehicle and every minute you drive it counts as on duty. MTO conducts facility audits to inspect your records for times as well as maintenance. Still want to put salt on that 3/4 ton truck? All these rules still apply if your truck weighs in over 4500 even if it isn't licenced for it.


Diginahole

I havent seen any of those MTO cops ever on Trafalgar. I would be going from Derry Rd south to Lower Base line. The route i take to work every morning is from Derry rd south to the Qew in Oakville. I hear what your saying and i dont think i would overload my truck.
I'm very aware of those truck stops i am also aware of Halton cops to. I blew a yellow turned into red light last year at 11pm and i didnt see the cop until i was halfway through and sure enough he follwed me onto the on ramp on the 401 at James Snow pkwy.. No ticket he was cool :)


There is a Coast guard office on Trafalgar before Dundas. Maybe if the road is wet enough they could catch me...


Thanks for the Answears guys much appriciated as always..

Should i keep the Plow on thou when getting salt ? The front will be up in the Air with 1.5 yards salt in the back.

[Snowboy]

One more quickie...

Is it good to plow with salt in the salter ? I duno lets say you load up a yard of salt and plow with that, or the salt kind of movieng to the front and back no good the truck or how the salter is fastned inside the truck ?

Thanks...

[Lawngodfather]

That's a lot of unneeded weight to carry while plowing

[JohnnyU]

A quickie? :wink omg

Yes, I would think that it's very good. You want to be heavy, the salt won't move around much, and the vbox better be strapped down good, or else you would run into problems.

The more mass you have while plowing, the more momentum you will have, thus, you will be able to push a little better, since the frictional and inertial force of the snow won't have as large of an effect on you. Look at your county's trucks, them suckers are loaded to like 27000#, they are essentially 2wd, they push those 10+ foot blades with relative ease!
plowing!

[Snowboy]

No not that Quickie.. Had that already...


Fisher says 700lbs of ballast or at least i think they say that on there page.. 700lbs is the weight of a salter. More weight also means harder on my tranny also leads to a greater stopping distance.

Dont get me started on the country plows. I gots a beef with them. Thats a story for a diffrent thread thou.

Thanks...

[4evergreenlawns]

I would have to agree with most of what has been said about your weights. I just scaled my 2500HD with the 8' Steel Pro, Swenson 8' V box 2yd. loaded level with fresh salt, 11,500. RUnning 245/70/16 E rated, 80 PSI front and rear, Timbrens Front and rear, three turns on the torsion bars. Run pretty level loaded. Plated for 12,000, GVWR 9,200. So I know I am over on the GVWR.

Here in IL if you are over the plated weight you get 1,000lbs grace weight - then Registration Violation 625/5 ILCS 3-401(d) , no points, your the fine is what ever the cost for the size plate that would have made you legal, bail to be posted in the full amout of the fine- CASH.

As far as GVWR, no grace weight, if you are over on GVWR it is only a/. Unsafe Operation 625 /5 12-101, simple equipment violation, no points, bail 75.00 or bond card ,or valid IL D/L.

BTW careful about what you say about them truck cops, I was one for five years, and I was a real Police Officer working traffic on the road, not just a DOT guy at a scale. A couple of thousand pounds over never gave a ticket, and NEVER made any one dump a load to get leagal, felt the ticket and fine was enough of their time spent.

Biggest overweight, 94,000lbs Gross operating in the rain, (yes I stopped trucks and cars in the rain, and in the snow) in a 5 axel tractor/trailer combo less than 42' long, know as bombers/gravel haulers here in IL, register for 72,380 allowed 72,000. Fine $14,500.00 for over weight on gross on a state roadway, and overweight on Registraion, plus a few other citations for equipment vioaltions by the state police. Fine paid full in court. That was just falt out wrong to be running that heavy. Could not get over 25 MPH in a posted 45 MPH on a flat roadway. Anyway do what is safe.:greenange

[wyldman]

Originally posted by cutntrim
I keep missing out on the MTO lecture at my local Landscape Ontario chapter. Trucks rated over 4500kg need the commercial sticker. Is that GCVWR? Or GVWR?

My GVWR is 9200lbs or 4173kg so I don't have enough capacity to go over a GVWR of 4500kg even if I wanted to.

Before the end of the lawn season I weighed my truck with trailer and mowing equipment, and guys, and fuel and it came in just under 4500kg total.

Yesterday, going on my first salt run I loaded 2yds into my AirFlo stainless and weighed my truck with the Fisher 8'6" V on as well. Weighed in at 4940kg...too heavy.

Looks like I'll have to load up without the plow on, and even then limit myself to 1 - 1.5yds tops.

You need an annual inspection sticker for the truck and\or trailer if:

You have a truck that weighs more than 4500 kg,then the truck needs a sticker.
You have a trailer that weighs more than 4500 kg,then the trailer needs a sticker.
A truck towing a trailer where the trailer weighs more than 4500 kg,then they both need a sticker.
A trailer towed by a truck where the truck weighs more than 4500 kg,then they both need a sticker.
Both the truck and the trailer being towed are over 4500 kg combined,then they both need a sticker.

So basically,if your over 4500 kg on anything,you need a sticker.

The 4500 kg (9920 lbs) is for whichever is greater,the GVWR,GCWR,or actual loaded weight.

[GLS]

4evergreenlawns -

Can you expain to me more about laws in Illinois? I didn't quite understand everything.

I have an 8600gvw truck. Can I get D plates and be allowed to carry a little bit more weight? Or will I be ticketed if I am over my gvwr? I always assumed I could not be over my gvwr. I have had gravel loads of well over 8600, but I never go far, just around town .

Also if you know, how much can I legally tow? Any other laws I should be aware of?

Thanks

[diginahole]

I agree with most of what Chris said above except I believe (but not certain) that you can pull an unstickered trailer weighing less than 2800 kg with a stickered truck. However you would still be required to perform a daily saftey inspection on the combination. Trailers that transmit less than 2800 kg to the road also do not need to be added to the RGVW of the truck.

From the MTO website

An annual safety inspection is required:

On a single truck, if its actual weight, registered gross weight or gross vehicle weight rating exceeds 4,500 kilograms (9,920 lb.),

or

On both the truck and the towed trailer, if the combination's weight exceeds 4,500 kilograms.

The combination's weight is determined by adding the greater of the truck's actual weight, registered gross weight or gross vehicle weight rating to the greater of the trailer's actual weight or gross vehicle weight rating.

[wyldman]

Any trailer that transmits less than 2800 kg (6,172 lbs) through it's axle(s) to the road,is not added to the registered gross weight,but still requires an annual inspection sticker if the combined weight of truck and trailer are more than 4500 kgs.

That catch is only used to allow you to get away with a smaller registered gross weight on the ownership while temporarily towing a trailer.Registered gross weight is used to determine how much you pay when you get your sticker.More weight,more $$$.

This is as per Ontario regulation 611 under the highway traffic act,updated by circular MVIS-35.

Ony things that don't apply are camper trailers and motorhomes.

[diginahole]

Yup Chris, I think you're right. I hadn't realized that I can't pull my buddies snowmobile trailer or boat trailer with my stickered pick up. Even though the combo would weigh in under 4500 the RGVW would make it necessary for the sticker on the small trailer. Glad I found out here not on the highway.

[cutntrim]

Uhh huh. So, if my pickup scales at under 4500kg while plowing in the winter,and my truck-trailer combo scales under 4500kg in the summer...

It depends on my GCWR for truck+trailer?

Truck (as mentioned) is 4173 GVWR so obviously I'd be over when combining the trailer...

I've been at this for 10yrs. and never had any insurance agent, equipment/truck dealer, ministry official,etc... ever mention anything about requiring a sticker until I leased my GMC from Nisco National Leasing this September. The salesperson mentioned the 4500kg limit and I said I'm actually just under 4500 GCW on the scale with truck + trailer. She then suggested it'd be less hassle to simply keep the yellow sticker in my filing cabinet, and not put it on the truck inviting routine MTO stops and requiring annual safeties.

Bad advice?

[wyldman]

You would need one on both the truck and the trailer,when towing the trailer.The combined weights of the two would put you over the 4500 kg.

To make it a little clearer,I should have stated MTO's position regarding truck and trailer weights used for the above calculations.

For the truck,weight is which ever is the HIGHEST of the following.

1)the actual weight empty
2)the actual weight loaded
3)gross vehicle weight rating
4)registered gross weight on ownership.

For trailers,it is whichever is the HIGHEST of the following

1)the actual weight empty
2)the actual weight loaded
3)gross trailer weight rating

9 times out of 10 it's the GVWR,as otherwise you would be overloaded,which is another fine. :(

So for your truck,with a 4173 GVWR,it would be used for the truck weight.So if your trailer's gross weight rating is less than 327 kgs,your OK,but i doubt it is.

So when towing your trailer in the summer,you would need stickers for both the truck,and the trailer.

Are you confused yet ?

Most of the insurance companies,dealerships,etc don't have a clue when it comes to annual inspections as they only think they are required for big trucks,not pickups.

If you have any doubts,I'll fax you over all the circulars and you can read up on it.We are MTO licensed for annual inspections.

[diginahole]

Yesterday I would have thought that you would be Ok since you scaled in at under 4500, but in light of what I have discovered on the MTO website it sounds like you should have both the truck and trailer stickered.

I also have 2 trucks, 2 plows, an enclosed trailer and skidsteer leased with Laura at Nisco. So far I have been very happy with the service I get there.

[cutntrim]

Got no problem with Laura. She's a nice lady and I felt I was treated fairly. But, she's not up to speed with MTO rules and regs. Truth is - it's not her job to be up to speed with them anyway.

Maybe I (and you to Dig) should have looked fully into all the MTO requirements, but shouldn't the onus be on the MTO themselves? All it takes is a mailout to landscapers and like businesses. How about anyone who buys a "heavy duty" pickup, or a trailer? They should make their requirements more readily available to those who need to know.

I pay all my taxes, insurance costs, professional membership fees etc... I'm not looking to fly under the radar of the MTO - I just have not been aware that I even needed a sticker before now. I don't think it should be an internet forum for snowplowers that ends up being the place I find that out.

Typical bureaucratic mismanagement I guess. Anyhow thanks for the info guys, and yes I'd like the circulars faxed to me if you have them Chris. I'll PM you my fax #.

[diginahole]

Sadly ignorance is never a valid excuse and the onus is upon us to make ourselves aware of the rules and regulations we must comply with. I have learned more than my share of lessons at roadside inspections. One that sticks out in my mind was when they introduced the CVOR, it was only months after it was introduced when I got a fine for not having it. I had never heard of it. You will need to get a CVOR number. I also learned a few things during my first facility audit although they didn't cost me anything.

Next time the MTO does a talk at your chapter (or another for that matter) be sure to make it out, it is a very informative session. I don't believe any of the chapters had a MTO meeting scheduled for this season. Maybe in '04 -'05.

[diginahole]

BTW when you have a CVOR number you get on the list to recieve Comercial Motor Vehicle News published by MTO that is supposed to keep us abreast of new regulations. Is only published sporratically when new regulations arise.

[Snowboy]

So to make a long story short if you have a 3/4 ton P/u like i do as well as a few others here we need to have our trucks registred.

I dont know at the moment what my truck weights in at the moment. The tuck is a 96 GMC so it would weigh less then Cutntrims HD GMC.

So if and when i start plowing i will need to have my truck registred and have the yellow sticker in my front window beeing that i would have a salter in the back of the truck which is 750lbs empty and a blade in the front that is equaly as heavy, but when i register i will not be able to pull my lil utility trailer because its not registred ?

Whats goin in the trailer just a 48" walkbehind or my 33" snowthrower.

Dave..

[wyldman]

If it's just your truck,you don't need a sticker,as your not over the 4500 kgs.If you are over when you put the salter on,and a load of salt on,then you need the sticker,but you would be way overweight,which is a fine as well.

If your towing the trailer,then your combined weight would be over the 4500 kg,and you need stickers on both the truck,and the trailer.

[Snowboy]

Well i can see them Laughing all the way to the bank when they see the trailer.. The Trailer is light and wont add much to the truck with the Snowblower or WB.

So with a plow and a empty salter im overweight alread then?

What if i take the Plow off?

What does one do buy a bigger truck just so they can salt?
Adding better suspension wont do anything right, because you are still over weight right?

I dont see how you guys with the Diesel trucks do it with plowing, the Diesel engine is alot heavier then the GAS and your still adding more weight by putting on a plow isnt that asking for trouble.

[wyldman]

A 3/4 ton pickup will not legally carry enough in a v-box to make it worthwhile to salt with,unless your doing small stuff,with a tailgate unit or something.

I don't think you'd be overweight with a v-plow and the v-box on,but your pretty close.You'd be limited as to how much salt you can legally carry.

Beefing up the suspension will help the truck carry it better,but it still isn't legal.Your stuck with the same GVWR on the door sticker.

It is even harder with a diesel due to the added weight of the heavy engine.I'm real close to my GVWR with just the plow,and my ballast.

I prefer bigger trucks (5 tons) for salting,as you have the capacity you need,without having to worry as much about being overweight.

[Snowboy]

So what do you think i can legally carry in my salt box ? Should i start dieting now ? I would hope i could take atleast 1 yard. How does salt compaire to Top Soil or Sod. I have taken yard and a half of Top soil and i mean top soil no peat or anything mixed in it.

I am sure i have overloaded my truck plenty of times hauling sod or firewood logs and it has hadled it well.

For the time beeing i would focus on smaller lots or places i can store salt onsite therfore make more trips with less but closer to other site's

Here is my door sticker..

Dave

[wyldman]

Gotta scale the truck,with what you would normally carry in it (you sitting in it,and the tank full),and then add the salter weight.Whatever is letover,is what you can legally carry.If you have the plow on,you'll have to add that in as well.

[cutntrim]

Chris - Thanks for the faxed info. I went on the MTO website last night after getting off of the forum and found most of what I needed. I'll hang on to the faxed info for reference.

Dig - Ignorance may not be a valid excuse when it comes to fines, but I think the MTO could do a better job of informing the thousands of small contractors that plow/trailer/carry loads as to the required licensing. MTO did make an appearance at the Hamilton chapter earlier this year, but I was unable to attend. I asked a couple of the directors from the chapter for copies of any handouts but they did not have any.

I'll have to call up the local Burlington MTO enforcement phone number and get the skinny on exactly what I need and how to go about getting it.

As far as what I can legally carry (with sticker): my truck's GVWR is 9,200lbs and I scaled at 10,900lbs with plow on and 2yds in salter. Taking off the plow saves 900lbs so I need to shave another 800lbs off to make the max GVWR. Given that a yard of salt weighs roughly 1600lbs I'd have to drop down to 1.5yds to stay legal. If that's the case, then I can live with it. It takes me 3yds. to do a heavy salting on all my sites so I have to reload anyway.