Protest

[Got Snow?]

i hear the snowplowing contractors for the state of mass are going to be protesting at the state capitol today?

anyone going? i know it's about the GPS thing, but what are the argruments?

[4evergreenlawns]

Seems like who would really care about having GPS unless it is a requirement by the state which mean the contractor has to pay for the install of new equipment. Although if it means you are going to get work from the state I guess you have to decide if the investment is worth the business. Unless of course people are telling the state they were somewhere they were not with equipement that was not ever there. Not that anyone would be trying to scame a Gov't agency.

While I only do commercail work is a client tell me the proformance requirement change I can either rebid the new requirements or move on to a different client. Seems like the same thing to me, but I bet there is someone out there that has already installed the GPS and is paying someone off to get the requirements to change. Hoevever, that is without hearing the entire story.

So maybe someone from on of those states can tell the rest of us what is going on???

[cat320]

If I had to pay to have this stuff put in my truck I would not If they want to give it to me I would probably take it unless like you said I was saying X amout of equipment is on and it's over sitting in my yard then I would like to not have it in my trucks .

[4evergreenlawns]

DISCLAIMER: This is without knowing the entire story.

I am just thinking all these years I hear how people make tons of money plowing for the State, which ever state that might be, and with the talk of most states cutting back on there roadway services here in the midwest where there is no contracting of state roads, why should people be allowed to get away with over fraud billing. In the smaller towns where contractors are used it is easy to see what equipment, where and when, but on state roads where large equipment is being used who would you manage and QC that operation??

I am sure there at plenty of guys doing it all by the book, but just one bad apple..... when you know the saying.

IMO it is just like a client asking for NWS comformation of snowfall totals with all billing. For the pricing and type of work I am doing I do not have time to be waiting for the NWS reports before I start plowing. So I just do not bid this type of client. That simple.

[FordPlow]

as much as I know the whole issue is the GPS. Its just a tracking method at no additional cost to the contractor. and as mentioned its just to make sure people are doing what they say so they are not home sleeping and getting taxpayer money.

I am not against it.

Dean

[cardoctor]

i thought the gps unit was the nextel phone with gps feature
if your doing the job you are getting paid to do whats the problem

john

[EZSnow]

Granted, I live in MN, so this doesn't affect me, but I wouldn't mind at all if my boss would know where I am. Cause I AM NOT CHEATING HIM!! I can see a little of the big brother argument, but if you want a job, it's almost always on the employer's terms. If you don't like the terms, don't take the job. What would you chant at a protest? How would the signs read?

"He** no- you can't know" (where we are)
"Don't make us accountable!!"
"Overpaid and Underworked- let's keep it that way!"
"Don't motivate us to increase productivity, we like sleeping on the clock!"

Sounds like the state of Mass. is just using technology to excercise good cost management. It wouldn't be frowned upon in the private sector, why is it such a big deal for independant contractors of the DOT?

[BWhite]

Personally it sends chills up my spine . But that is just me . I dont like when people are crawling up my butt when I am waiting in lines . I like my space . That will open up abuse from the other side too . If they wanted you out . t

[jt5019]

If it was at no costs to me i would have no problem.Gps is just a way to track and make sure they are actually out doing their job.All it takes is one bad apple to ruin the bunch.Plus if something were to happen such as an accident and you cant get intouch with anyone they can track you and send out help. just my opinion.

[EZSnow]

Upon looking back over my post, I need to amend it.

I'm not a fan of big government, but in this case, I don't think that's the issue. In my retail store, I have one obviously present and three hidden cameras watching our assets in different ways. A couple on the register drawers, one across the counter that shows the sales floor and the door, and one over the 'safe'. (a lockable, fireproof file cabinet) I've already busted one unsuspecting fellow trying to lighten the bank bag in the safe, and I caught him on the hidden camera. All from the comfort of the computer in my office. How is GPS tracking of employees (state or otherwise) any different? The opposing question is: "what's next?" (then fill in your favorite sci-fi conspiracy)
Well, frankly, it doesn't matter what's next- and as am employer, I don't think there's anything wrong with this. And if you don't want someone to know where you are, don't take a job that requires you to carry a gps-enabled phone.

Guys who run more than one truck and have hired drivers, I have a question for you:
How many times have you assigned a known 4-hour route that took 5 or 6? They say they hit traffic? (their route was on sideroads) They ran low on fuel? (but the tank is empty and they didn't turn in a receipt) They got their finger stuck in... (but it doesn't smell as bad as it should) What ever the excuse is- it doesn't jive, but you can't prove it. How great would it be to just hit a button in the office and see where they've been!?? Tallk about cutting the fluff out! Sounds good to me, I just wish it were a small-scale-affordable technology.

[drobson]

From what I have read, the GPS requirement is to be paid for by the plowing contractor, not by the state.

But that is not the only issue. The bigger issue seems to be payment for services. There is a clause in the contract that if the state finds that you did not use the GPS system properly on even one event, then you forfeit any money owed to you by the state. This is a big deal when the state can take months and months to pay.

Lots of guys get secured loans for upward of 100K because they need it to live on, and their money does not come quick with the state. However, the banks will no longer approve loans secured on the money owed by the state if there is a possibility that the state will not have to pay because of the failure to properly use the GPS. So what happens if you lose the GPS? or it breaks during a storm? They may understand, but they also have the contract that says they can deny payment of money you already earned.

This is what I have heard about in the contracts, with this in mind, I am personally against the contracts and the GPS. Take out the payment part and have the state pay for the GPS and I would be ok with it.

[windmill]

When you're doing a job you love (and who doesn't love plowing) why would you care if you are being tracked. If you hate your job and could be caught goofing off, your employer might be doing you a favour by releasing you to go out and find that job that you'll love. Unless you hate work, there's a job out there that you will enjoy, I've yet to find one I didn't enjoy, including working in a rendering plant. :) :cash

[JD PLOWER]

The real issue here is the large contractors who have any where from 20 to maybe 150 trucks on with the state have the biggest problems with the entire system. As Drobson has posted if the driver fails to activate the system properly then they don't get paid simple and pretty unfair if you ask me. The large contractors might have five drivers out of 150 that fail to activate the system but at around 100 per hour in a 10 hour shift thats five grand that he's out, plus by law he has to pay the drivers whether or not he gets paid. What this really comes down to is the state needs to find highway personnel who won't cheat or let others cheat the state out of money since most of the waste and out right fraud is well known and is accepted as part of the cost of doing business. The guys driving the yellow state trucks (2wd pickups) are the ones who are supposed to keep an eye on all the contractors and be certain that they do what they are paid for, but some them have also worked out side deals with others for a little "extra pay". My uncle, who has plowed for the state and will plow for them even with the GPS since he doesn't cheat anyone and actually needs the money to pay the bills told me an interesting story about fraud. According to what he was told a contractor who salts and plows for the state had a little deal with a yard foreman who signed off on his time sheet even when he was not only not there but there was NO SNOW!! When the state checked the records they found out that in one month he billed for more hours then was possible to work in a month :rolleyes: I personnaly was told by one of the foreman in the yellow trucks that they are already trying to find ways to cheat the system and its not even working yet?

Bottom line for me is the state needs to worry about its own employees first and that will solve much of the problem here and pay people within a reasonable amount of time. Some contractors feel that if the state is going to take six months to pay them then why shouldn't they take "extras" when they can?

[Got Snow?]

Originally posted by drobson
From what I have read, the GPS requirement is to be paid for by the plowing contractor, not by the state.

But that is not the only issue. The bigger issue seems to be payment for services. There is a clause in the contract that if the state finds that you did not use the GPS system properly on even one event, then you forfeit any money owed to you by the state. This is a big deal when the state can take months and months to pay.

Lots of guys get secured loans for upward of 100K because they need it to live on, and their money does not come quick with the state. However, the banks will no longer approve loans secured on the money owed by the state if there is a possibility that the state will not have to pay because of the failure to properly use the GPS. So what happens if you lose the GPS? or it breaks during a storm? They may understand, but they also have the contract that says they can deny payment of money you already earned.

This is what I have heard about in the contracts, with this in mind, I am personally against the contracts and the GPS. Take out the payment part and have the state pay for the GPS and I would be ok with it.

it's my understanding that the state is providing the phone with the software on it. i dont believe theres any cost for the contractor. one of the features with this software is that it is a TIMECLOCK as well. they keep track of your hours worked by you logging in and out of the phone. not any different than punching a clock. since it's a nextel phone (the i58 which is made to MIL spec) it wont break.

[Got Snow?]

here's a link to the software

www.actsoft.com/demos/menu.html

[gordyo]

since it's a nextel phone (the i58 which is made to MIL spec) it wont break

Lets see here. I was given a new Nextel phone last week by my boss. I just looked and it is a i58. I just checked and it has GPS.

Should I be worried?? LOL :nope

[cat320]

Gordyo he's gonna track you on his compter from his house to see where that loader goes.:eek: Don't get to many Krispie Kremes lol

[T-Zab]

Why is it a big issue for your boss- state, gov. private contractor
whomever to know what your doing? Prime example: The weekend of the nov. 21 first was the deer opener in wi. I came back on the 26th. When 2 employees turned there time cards for last week they claimed they actually had overtime!!!:headwall
I was at the jobsite last monday and they did very little if anything in 3 days. Should I pay them? Yes, I have too by law. I had a little talk with them and they stuck too there guns. Sure wish I would have had gps in there trucks. Im a small carpentry contractor, this cost me a couple grand. Not only do I get to pay them for doing nothing but the feds, the state, and workers comp. Sweet deal for me eh.
I vote for gps, Im tired of gettin bent over the barrel by everyone.
T

[Got Snow?]

Originally posted by gordyo
Lets see here. I was given a new Nextel phone last week by my boss. I just looked and it is a i58. I just checked and it has GPS.

Should I be worried?? LOL :nope

look under "java applications" the software is called mTracker or mComet i can't remember.....:confused:

anyway no one will be able to track you if the software on the phone isn't running, they will, however, know that your not logged in

[Got Grass]

Screw the GPS & install cameras in the trucks (like cop cars have). to go on with the warning lights. That way there is proof of how many mailboxes you took out...



:argue :greenange

[4evergreenlawns]

WOW this has really taken off in a few directions all on topic.

The nextell with the built in GPS is a great idea and as I expand I WILL be lloking into this for my drivers and subs. Reminds me of the story where I was checking on subs VIA Nextel and they all said they were on the jobs and plowing. In one case the a sub had three trucks working one site. I never heard from the site, until it was billing time. The client rep refussed to pay the bill along with written notice to cancle. I had this acount for three years. So I gathered up my time sheets, and salt weight slips and went for the meeting.

I walked in and the client rep. said, Ron before you say anything you might want to take a look at this, and in pops a video tape of several cameras showing the only enterance in and out. Long story short not only did the where the trucks not there when they said they were, they were not there for the hours posted. Also, the three truck ALL were suppose to have V boxes, only one truck did, and yes they billed for three loads of salt.

Moral to the story, if I would have had GPS on those trucks and a log on and log off requirement maybe I would not have looked like an A**.

The argument about the state being a slow pay and big operations being put at risk if a driver does not activate a phone by pushing a few buttons??? Than how do they operate that big truck with all those levers, and switches, and obstacles, and slippery road conditions, and wipper going back and forth, and the radio on, so on , so on. Oh, I see they have been do thet for years, but turning on a phone that might track time and location that they can not do. Lets not forget that for years the state is a slow pay but year after year guys fight for, pay for, take out to lunch and dinner for, buy new equipement for, these dogs of a deal contracts.

Last I looked MASS was a state which started the fight against taxes for the sake of independence, so now they want the state, and Gov't body to just pay what they tell them they did without any proof?? HHHMMMM


My vote.... "YES FOR GPS" and when I tell the subs next year they have to use my nextel and use the tracking system or they dont get paid, and they say NO, they find someone esle to plow (rip off) for that year. Too many times I hear about how 4 hours of work took 6 because......

Good luck

[BWhite]

I work for myself so I can do what I want . Actually equipping your employees with helmet camera will allow you to check what they REALLY did when they gps timeclocked punched out to use a bathroom . Dock em for improper usage of time . With the helmet cam you can see if they are making to many passes while plowing the lot , Dock em if they are . If you cant trust your employees fire them . Why try to control them ? Why keep someone you cant trust ? Someone plowing with your equipment ? You can also use data control systems to see if they are plowing your truck to hard . monitor temps, throttle position , G force whatever . Then if you catch em Nextel em and dockem / ? What a way to run a business

[4evergreenlawns]

BWhite, I guess you missed the part where the sub was caught on cam lieing. As for the helemt cam great idea, I bet I can get a break on my insurance too for issuing saftey equipment.

How big is your snow plowing operation??? Hard to tell looks like you just have one truck and with that back plow looks like you are doing alots of driveways, that is a business that takes alot of planing and management I am sure.

You are right, I should just pay people as they sit in there drive way of even better while they are watching TV in the house. Isn't that the way they are doing it in MASS now, yes it is, thats right that is why the state is demeanding the GPS for contractos. I bet alot of business guys are willing to just pay whatever to all the employees out there and that is how they will stay in business.

Yes, I paying someone to drive my trucks, I own more then one because I am doing such a bad job at managing my rotten business.

BWhite cnd you send me the link fo the helmet cam?


VOTE - "YES FOR GPS"

[BWhite]

If people lie or cheat you fire them . Its not to hard to tell ? Why bother keeping a bad employee by trying to keep them in line . They will waste your time trying to figure out some way around it . I made no comment about how you manage your business , you do what you see fit .
Bill

[4evergreenlawns]

Oh I forgot, you can not just fire an employee, you have to be able to prove they not perform there job they were hired to do ro you have to pay the unemployement, and risk being sued, but as you have had many employees and have obviously managed masses, you already know that.

"I work for myself so I can do what I want"

.......News flash....... someone pays you, you are working for someone. If a customer, (the person that pays you) wants the job done a certain way, or at a certian time, do you tell them, "NO, I work for myself so I can do what I want" That too will take you a long way.


VOTE - "YES FOR GPS"

[BWhite]

I thought that up . But I am sure someone must sell one .

[4evergreenlawns]

Bill,

I totaly understand, just seems like the GPS thing is being made more than what it should be. You are self employees so you know if a client looks or sounds like they will be a hassle you walk away.

If the new GPS requirement to unreasonable than they should walk away from the contracts.


Just venting, If there was a way I could bid on work for the state I would try my best. But I have walked away from contracts because of all the added B*S*. Like client that want NWS comfirms of total snow falls. No time for that.


Hey go Bears.

[BWhite]

I do a great job , very few complaints . But then again I will never have someone nextel me that the route I just took was 300 yards longer than the optimium route " do that again your docked "

In another life I had a CNC machining business with employees . I understand your concerns about letting someone go . I carefully screened the few employees I had and was pretty lucky . But I have let people go for various reasons . I wasnt going to keep them because I was "concerned "

[W-n-K Landscaping]

Ok- after reading through this thread ( I see I've missed alot being out for two days !!) I can see that this is getting prety heated and there are several good points being made. Personally I do not like the thought of somebody looking over my shoulder at all times I am working- but this is why I am self employed- on the other hand as a business owner I can see how this makes sense. I previously worked for Verizon, and they are also installing GPS to track their employees. This has created quite a stir amongts the employees. Most of them do their job, and are where they are supposed to be - but there are those few bad apples that can ruin it for everyone. Personally if I ad such a large scale operation such as the state i would also be looking into this system. It is a perfect way to handle payroll, track routes, see trouble areaas when they pop up, or predict where their could be trouble, emergency purposes, etc... The pros definitely outweigh the cons here. If I did not have to pay for the equipment, then I would have no problem in using their system- subcontractor or not, I am still an employee and the employer sets the conditoins for employment. Personally I would also ask for copies of the tracking for my records- this would be invaluable information in the future when it came to bidding out work of my own. I vote for the GPS on such a large scale operation, but for the smaller contractors it is not worth it. Like Bill said- if you can't trust them fre them, you ust have to catch them in the act, and that is usually not hard to do since cheating is pretty stupid begin with, and most cheats are not too intelligent.

Just my $.02 on the issue.

Bill

[BWhite]

If I had a client question the actual snowfall amount I would ask them what they think I should have charged , Get the payment and that would be the last they see of me . Like you I have no time for that ,I am lucky I have turn away a large amount of calling customers

[BWhite]

I dont consider this heated ! I like this discussion good points are flying around . I can see both sides of the issue . I really like when someone I work(worked ) for trusted me . It makes me work harder (pride) . If an employee doesnt respond that way they are not worth keeping . To much control will sour them they will have no real ownership in doing a good job . Thats all I am saying .

[W-n-K Landscaping]

Bill- sorry, maybe heated wasn't a good choice of words- I was refering to exactly what you said-"

I like this discussion good points are flying around . I can see both sides of the issue . I really like when someone I work(worked ) for trusted me . It makes me work harder (pride) . If an employee doesnt respond that way they are not worth keeping . To much control will sour them they will have no real ownership in doing a good job . Thats all I am saying ."

and I agree wholeheartedly with you. Sorry- didn't mean to ruffle anyones feathers, I was out plowing for 12 hours, had to replace an alternator in the middle of the night, and only got a few hours sleep today before going back out to hit a few accounts and work on the truck some more. I think that this thread has turned into a well thought out discussion and several good points are being made.

Bill

[BWhite]

snow storm repairs are always tough . Especially if your outside. Go get some sleep !!

[T-Zab]

It is easy to say fire an employee. For what ??? Lack of performance? Good help is definatly hard to find, and replacing employees is even harder. The guys I mentioned before are normally decent guys, they took advantage of the situation. If I had a way to track them i probally would. I am not an ogar and i worked for others for years so I no what that is about. But If I could prove were they were for those times on those dates then I would just not pay those hours. I understand you may have the runs one day from some bad chicken lol. So you spent a little extra time in the crapper. Everyone has bad days and you dont get done what you hopped. I fully understand these issues. If there were all saints out there would we even have a thread started on this issue?
T

[flatbed]

I worked for a major trucking outfit.. and all the trucks had qualcom.....thay can tell how fast you are going... where you are..truck rpm.....and avg. speed.... if you over speed the the rig it would beep...to many times in one trip and thay would wright you up..it was a computer keyboard with a small screen........look for the round white antena mounted on the back of the sleepers.......

[JD PLOWER]

Some things to keep in mind. The system with or without gps will have holes in it and the holes will be exploited, count on it. Secondly many operators will exercise their right to not work for the state and I have no problem with that and I don't think any less of them for that, but I also understand those contractors who want to stay with the state and wish to not be thought of as thieves.

As to these guys not being able to program a phone.....my uncle who is very handy with tools of all kind and could probably rebuild a brake system on his ten wheel Mack blindfolded but he couldn't program a VCR if his life depended on it. He even has trouble finding all his saved numbers in his phone book. My point is this, have the phones, keep them at the state yards and make the people who are in the yards responsible for the programing. Give them out and tell the contractors they have to return them in order to get paid. Remember this, the plow subs are not employees , they are sub contractors and that is very important distinction. The state like all employers needs to have its employees do what they get paid for and fire if necessary the people who don't work. Its much easier to fire a sub then an employee.

[mikegamb]

when i subbed for the state you had to be within one mile of a state rig.they use to mush me in between a state rig in front 1 to 6 subs and 2 or 3 state trucks taking up the rear.if you were hired to plow out state owned property you were checked on alot.i think CT if the haven't yet this year they will go to GPS

[EZSnow]

So- was there a protest today?

[drobson]

MA is a hire/fire at will state. An employee can be let go without any reason given. Their only repercussion would be if they could prove that they were let go for a discriminatory reason.

I think the concept of the GPS is a good idea. I also read quotes from some state subs that said they were being charged for the GPS equipment, which is wrong. I totally agree that the equipment should be maintained by the state and given out when the sub leaves the yard.

We also have to remember the definition of a subcontractor. Not sure if all states are the same, but I believe that a subcontractor is someone that is hired to do a job with their own equipment and knowledge of how to do the job. If you tell them how and when to do the work, you are making them an employee. I don't think you can tell a non employee what time they have to start and stop work and take breaks, etc.... Could be wrong, but this is my impression of a subcontractor.

[JD PLOWER]

We also have to remember the definition of a subcontractor. Not sure if all states are the same, but I believe that a subcontractor is someone that is hired to do a job with their own equipment and knowledge of how to do the job. If you tell them how and when to do the work, you are making them an employee. I don't think you can tell a non employee what time they have to start and stop work and take breaks, etc.... Could be wrong, but this is my impression of a subcontractor.

Dan I don't think its exactly that cut and dry. If a contractor sued the state and said they are entitled to the same benefits as an employee you can bet the state would rewrite the definition and make it law within days after the lawsuit. It would be the end of the GPS problem thats for sure. I know the states been hiring subs for decades now and I don't think anyone has successfully sued for benefits. I think you might be thinking of the IRS test for employees and subs that is something like 20 ways to tell the two apart.

[drobson]

JD, I understand that it's not that simple, but the state seems to be wanting to control the subs more and more like regular employees. Now I don't sub for the state, or for any local cities and towns, I just work for myself. I was just trying to make a point about there being a difference betwee the two. I mean the whole point of having subcontractors is so that you won't have to micro manage anyone because they are supposed to know what they are doing. In Landscaping I would not hire a sub that I had to go with and watch to make sure they were doing the work, I would just do it myself or hire an employee. Maybe they should just make all the state subs temp employees, they still won't have to pay benefits and then they could make them do anything they wanted.

I think most of the problems would go away if the state would just pay them every month or every 2 weeks instead of trying to sit on the money and make interest on the millions they owe out. If there wasn't the possibility to lose so much money, I don't think there would be such a big issue about the new contracts.

[JD PLOWER]

Your correct Dan. The gps thing is really just the straw that broke the cammels back on this. That and the lack of a rate increase in I think about 8 years.

Temps? Yeah that might be something that could get around the benefits problem.

[Adams Plowing]

My take on it is If the state wants to put gps phones in the trucks at their expence and i would have to say pay more $ for the inconvieonce of having to use the phone (even though its not that much extra work) then i think i would have no problem with it I can see valid points on both sides but JD did bring up a valid point about the IRS ways to determine wether someone is an employee or a subcontractor thats federal law and by putting that much control on a subcontractor and making them be on a tight leash they could be getting into a real grey area with that. Also the state couldnt just pass a law to bypass that if it was deamed by the irs tax laws that because of them being supplied and made to use the item and the control of them by it that they were employees because federal law will always supperceed state law. IMO they should just hire on a few more supervisors and make them do their jobs and have them out checking the work of the contractors.

[4evergreenlawns]

As this thread grows I have note noticed anyone pipe up who is actually doing work for the state of MASS under the new contract so I reffer back to my earlier DISCLAIMER. I do not know what the real changes are or what the new requirements are either.

As far as sub contracting goes, the contract lays out the terms. Most of the time there is a basic performa/ performance requirements that are provided to the contractor in order to set out the bid terms. If it is on a hourly basis, per type of equipment I do not see how if the state sets up a program to track the hours and locations for each piece of equipment was, is making the contractor an employee.

There must be some type of system they are using now? Oh, that's right, it is the system reffer to where one guy marks on a sheet if the other guy was there and how long he was there. That is working well.

If you call the heating repair man to fix your heater he might say there is a 1 hour min. at this rate. If he works for 2 hours do you tell him I am only paying for one?? If he works for 45 mins and tells you it was 2 hours worth of work do you just pay him for 2 hours? He is a contractor, you sign some type of work authorization (contract) which state terms and type of work to be performed. So I do not really see the diffference.

The only reason I would consider going with GPS, and as I stated I would totaly incurr all the costs. Is because I can see a real bennifit should there be any type of dispute. Either by the client, by the Insurance company, or by the sub or employee. Simply put in most cases the electronic method does not lie, does not have a bad day, does not forget to clock time and/or location, and even with reports in the trucks times are missing, sites are not maked down it just happens, damn I even do it sometime and have to go back the next day and update the snow log. Using this type of system does not mean I think all employees and sub are fudging on times.

As my business grows I can not be everywhere, nor do I have the time to be out checking every site for times. I can also see that it would help in bidding repeat business, look up the location, look up how many hours, and bid the work, either keep the rataes the same or increase the rates with a report to justify the increase and work performed. As least in commercail work if I can provode some type of proof, besides the lot being cleaned on time, I think the client is going to look at that at being professional. It might even make the difference in keeping and/or getting new business. Even getting the bigger jobs that are all by the hour billing. That is how I am looking at it. I am sure we have all been questioned in some maner about, ok, hour long does it really take you, or how do you know how much salt you really put down, and even what time were you really here, for when the slip and fall claim comes in.

I know of several industries that are currently using some type of electronic tracking either with or without the employees knowledge, and just like with the OTR truck drivers they are told you are being tracked, you can drive for us, or not.

As far as "at will" employement, that goes both ways. The employer has the "at will" right to set reasonable work conditions" and the employee can take an, I will "at will" work or not work for this company.

If there are contractors out there that think the state is doing something unreasonable, than they should take their privately owned equipment and park it or find new clinets. For every contractor that decides not ot work for the state I am sure there are two or three contractors willing to step up and play by th new rules. I bet there is even a waiting list just to bid for the state contracts.

And CNY, you must just be rubbing in the fact that you guy had snow to plow. Not even a light dusting here in Chicago so far this season.

[Mick]

From the IRS web site: You are an independent contractor if the person for whom you perform services for has only the right to control or direct the result of your work, not what will be done, or how it will be done.

Additional: http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=115041,00.html

The rules to determine "employee" are not defined by the State.

I think they might have a tough time requiring a contractor to have a GPS device. Would you require this of a plumber or electrician who worked on your property? How about the lawyer working on your case so you could track the time he actually spent on it?

[BWhite]

Interesting point Mick . The GPS could make all the subs employees ....accroding to IRS rules .

[Got Snow?]

i believe the true test will be how the state uses the software. i don't see the state haggleing over 5min here or there. i think there after the 16hrs bill for 8 hrs of work.

whats the difference is your being supervised by a foreman in a truck or by a dispatcher on the computer? the fact of the matter is that the taxpayers are demanding more accountability on monies spent. this is a PERFECT solution for this. all the GPS information is stored on the computer and is there indefinatly always for reference. the state can prove to whom ever the cost of services to the services provided. and just think, if your paycheck is short you always have something to back you (the contractor) up.

any business with 2-3 vehicals out on the road can benifit from this system. you can manage your employees just as if they were working in the office. whats wrong with that?

the state of mass spent over 65 MILLION DOLLARS last year on contract snow plowers. how many of you can spend that kind of money with out being accountable? They expect to save upwards of 10 MILLION DOLLARS with this system. the investment for this system was around 1 mil for 3300 nextel phones with the software.

PM/email me for more info on the product.

BWhite,
hey i spent 15yrs in a machine shop (cnc/programming) are you involved at all in the trade still?

[Got Snow?]

while this is an interesting topic, who is subbing for the state (MA) and was anyone at the protest.

There was a small blurb about it on the news last night, but i didn't catch the detils.

off to get salt....................................

[4evergreenlawns]

Mick

From the IRS web site: You are an independent contractor if the person for whom you perform services for has only the right to control or direct the result of your work, not what will be done, or how it will be done.

You hit the nail on the head. WIth the GPS I do not see how the state it attempting to to tell the contractor WHAT or HOW, seems more like the WHERE, WHEN, and HOW LONG, that sure sounds like CONTROLLING and DIRECTING, and that is EXACTLY what all the fuss is about.

OMG 65 MILLION dollars collected by contractors and they are making a fuss over some phones. Looks like the saving of 10 MILLION dollars.is what has most of the guys making a fuss worried. That is an huge amount of money. As far as the plumber, electrician, or a lawyer, 65 MILLION dollars you bet I would be asking for more than a slip of paper.

Sounds like most people who are managing cost, profit margins, and cash flow on a larger scale then just the familiy budget can see that is a no brainer.

[Mick]

4evergreenlawns, I'm not sure what arguement you're making.
Words inside () are quotes of the IRS definition.

According to the IRS definition, the State ("person" for whom you perform services) can only tell me what they want done - ie: plow five miles of road by 5:00AM (has only the right to control or direct the result of your work) but could not tell me what equipment to have, when to actually work or when to take breaks (not what will be done, or how it will be done).

So, to require that they carry GPS device or to direct a certain time to be working or taking breaks is not within the definition of a contractor. Now, if they are submitting falsified documents (time sheets etc) that is seperate matter altogether.

[4evergreenlawns]

You must be right, everyone in the New England area knows the laws, and regulations just as a matter of fact. Just ask my Ex-Wife living in NH who has not worked a day in the past 12 years but collects over $2000.00 a month in state assistance, while I am still pay nearly a $1,000.00 a month in child support. She to can rattle off some laws and reg that favor her. I am also supporting a movement to change the state matto in NH from "Live free or die". to "Live off the state or die" to replace the words on their vehicle plates. Of course along with the "YES FOR GPS" movement. LMAO!!

All of the aforementioned not withstanding, I only know of my personal experience in bidding work. The client set down a standard and offers it to perspective contractors.

Ex: snow plowing commencing upon 2" of snow, ice control to be applied with proper authorization and to be billed per bulk ton, bucket loader to be available within 4 hours of request and to be billed per hour only with proper authorization, and so on.

If I want to bid the job I have to agree to the standard they set and bid it accordingly. If I am awarded the contract the client monitors the work. If I should deviate from the standard I am in violation of the contract. That does not make me their employee.
I am still working for myself billing them based on terms we both agreed to.

When you typed this " ie: plow five miles of road by 5:00AM (has only the right to control or direct the result of your work) but could not tell me what equipment to have, when to actually work" are you saying that the state can not tell you that in order to plow a raodway you have to have at least a truck or how many trucks and set the standard lets say a 1 ton 4X4 pick up with at least a 8' plow without becoming you employer??

Than are you saying if you show up on the 5 miles of roadway you bid on with 15 ride on lawn movers with 42" plows to plow the roadway and the state tells you that is not acceptable equipment to perform the job they instantly become your employer?

More to the point, if the contract is a per hour, per type of equipment, how do you think they are paying the contractor? Some type of tracking system has to be used. Therefore, I am still totaly missing the point as to WHY, if the state is smiply automating the way they are tracking hours being billing by contractors that obviously went through some type of bidding process to be awarded the work how does the contractors now say there is something unfair, or they are not employees, and so on.

I have conducted business in a few different states and even bid on federal Gov't contracts a few times, (which I do think the IRS is part of the federal Gov't) and if you want to talk about controling, read the specs for a federal gov't contract some time, I have never heard that if the client set a standard to be followed as you have described it, that they become your employer. Maybe I just have biding the wrong type of contracts.

I am glad there is a place where business professional like ourselves can have this type of open discussion safely. I bet if we were talking about this over a few beer it would not be so friendly. ROFL!!!!!!! Thanks again Chuck you really are the best.

[slplow]

The newspaper says this is the real reason plow drivers don't want GPS???? hmmmmmm

[slplow]

I tried post a cartoon from the paper with a dunkin donuts parking lot full of plow trucks.