SMG going under????

[4evergreenlawns]

So there is a large amount of talk about SMG going under or being in default on payments.

Anyone know about this for sure or what is really going on. Some guys are saying they are 10 and 20,000 past due from last last season.

I thought if there are any truth to this someone here would know. I am only curious because I am intresting in understanding how a company with such a high rating just fall apart in one season. Maybe I can learn something from it.

That is if any of it is true.

[BRL]

The SMG situation has been discussed here a bunch. The late, slow, & non payment of subs & vendors has reportedly been going on since at least the 1999-2000 season. But the stories of their business going under started recently.

http://www.snowplowing-contractors.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3748

http://www.snowplowing-contractors.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4066

http://www.snowplowing-contractors.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4148

http://www.snowplowing-contractors.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2929

[Mark Oomkes]

Ron, I am sort of concerned as well. SMG chose to renew our contract with them\CVS this year instead of rebidding. I am thinking this is to save overhead costs, i.e. going through all new bids.

I am a little worried, but we were paid on time for the most part last season. But the checks are coming from CVS after SMG audits the invoices and it wasn't a lot of work, so I am willing to take a little bit of a chance on it.

[John P]

I heard Sybiot was looking to buy smg but i havent heard weather this happened or not. I was wondering weather Symbiot baled John Allen out or will he just implode.Just curious.

[John Banks]

Here's the latest...I rec'd a second letter from Centrus Group, Inc, Business Planning and Turnaround Management, signed Robert L. Cohen, Advisor to Allin Companies and SMG, dated 10/2/04.

Basically, it states that SMG has 3 options for action. The first action - Acquisition...SMG is anticipating a letter of intent for purchase of its assets. The purchase price may be adequate to compensate vendors for a significant portion of their outstanding claims, and potentially compensate creditors over a period of time.

Action 2 - Profit payout - here they will try to solicit support of the SMG's creditors to accept a payout of debt based on the profit performance of the company over a period of time.

Action 3 - Equity for Debt - some vendors/creditors have, according to the letter, have expressed interest in accepting stock in Allin Companies or SMG in exchange for their outstanding claims.

This is just a summary of the letter, as there is more rhetoric, but it gives you the essentials.

[Mark Oomkes]

John Banks, maybe you shuld post that at the other site. I'm sure nocando will have some brilliant remark about it. Funny how he slammed\bad mouthed Superior Management Group but sticks up for SMG so much.

[John Banks]

Hey Mark, I thought about it, perhaps I will now...

John P, no news on Symbiots web-site. And they seem to have news about everything, everyday.

[VALLEYWIDEPA]

ENRON HERE WE COME. I WOULD NOT PICK OPTION 2 OR 3

[John Banks]

Valleywidepa, it's been done. Thanks for the suggestion.

[chtucker]

Hope Symbiot got permission to use all of those snow pictures on its website. I know that some of them are from the manufacturers website...

Geez can't even take their own pictures of their own accounts.

[Mark Oomkes]

I was thinking about this Symbiot thing last night. To the best of my knowledge, Symbiot isn't a 'company'. Symbiot is\was a coalition of mostly large landscape contractors that didn't want to lose their individual identities but still be able to provide a nationwide customer service wherever that customer had locations via another Symbiot member.
They saw these types of problems, i.e. not being able to serve customers personally, that companies like TruGreen Landcare could not perform or overcome.

I am curious that if Symbiot is the 'deep pockets', where that money is coming from.

I thought it was a waste of money because there is no garantee after becoming a partner that I was going to receive any business from them.

I was called by Symbiot to give sq ft numbers on a customer that we currently service through another mgt company (that is totally screwed up). This was the day after I had turned in the numbers to the current mgt company. Then, they proceeded to tell me how it worked, if I'm a sales partner they mark it up 5% if I'm not then it's 10% or something like that. I think he was trying to get me to lower my pricing, but I'm not sure. The mgt company ended up going through another mgt company in MI.

[Vince]

smg was bought out by symbiot @ 14 million.
I hope those of you who are owed money get your share.
we are still not sure who is going to be plowing local routes here but from what i understand he also had to sign a non compete.
it should be interesting to watch things unfold this winter

[John Banks]

Like someone mentioned previously, I thought Symbiot was essentially an organization of companies, or a group of companies, not a single company that has any assets, etc. ?

Am I all wet here? Anyway, I too hope we all get our money! At this point, it could come from Satan himself, I just want to get paid!

[JCurtis]

Vince,

Where did you get that information?

Can it be verified?

Is JAA staying or going on to other things?

[Snoworks]

My CVS contracts were also re-newed. Maybee, I should make a phone call to see if they are still in business!

Chuck B.

[SLC1]

I was on the phone with SMG today talking about our Wachovia contracts and they made no mention of any problems, They are renewed and will be getting them next week. We havent had any problems with late payments with them but then again we get checks from the Wachovia themselves and not SMG.

[4evergreenlawns]

From what I have read any subs getting paid from the Client direct have been paid up to date. It seems the cash flow VIA SMG was the issue.


Chuck,

Nice to see you around. Glad to hear you are re-newed on the CVS sites.

[John P]

I heard on Saturday that Snow Management filed chapter 11 and went bankrupt Friday. Any one else here anything.

[Mark Oomkes]

You'd think that someone from SMG would put all these rumors to rest by just giving a press release.

Gotta being doing wonders for customer confidence.

[gslam88]

Guys,

I look here .. so far found no information .. but it only goes from todays date forward on what could be helpfull

http://www.pawb.uscourts.gov/

this is the western pa bankrupcy court

Pete

[gslam88]

U.S. Bankruptcy Court
U.S. Courthouse, Room B160
17 South Park Row
Erie, PA 16501

814-464-9740
FAX: 814-464-9747

Hours of Operation:
9:00 a.m. - 4:30 p.m.

[John Banks]

I rec'd another letter from Centrus Group, salvage atty, etc. that "they" have received an "executed letter of intent from a strategic buyer who has made an offer to purchase all of the assets of SMG. This strategic buyer is engaged in the business of snow removal on a national basis, and intends to utilize many of the asets, relationships and the employees of SMG to expand the combined operations throughout the country. This is an exceptional opportunity for the customers, vendors, service providers and employees."

It goes on to talk about what a Letter of Intent is and that this one does provde a base from which all creditors of the company should benefit.

John P. for their sake, I hope you're wrong about the CH 11. In stating that all creditors of the company should benefit, I'm hoping they mean that we will be paid, and will not be writing off the loss as a tax-deduction:fuming

:fuming

[John P]

I hope i am wrong too as i feel bad for all the contractors smg has screwed over the past 2 seasons.

[landman]

I was talking to them today and was told we are going to get paid in 3 payments if this letter of intent proves to become a real deal. Well see, also for those of you guys who plow Wachovia sites I was contacted by a management company who represents a property holding company which apparently bought 5 million sq ft of Wachovia properties and asked us to submit bids for 2 locations we were doing under SMG, I have been trying to contact SMG about this but no one calls back????? I want to know if they are aware of this! and if so why didn't they notify us of this??

[InstantRefill]

A meeting was held with ten of the largest sub contracdtors of SMG last week. The comimittee supported the payment proposal. Should the sale of SMG go forward, sub contracts should see payment this month.

[CT18fireman]

A good reason not to be a sub-contractor IMO. At least for a big company.

A smaller, local company you could demand quicker payments and stop working if you did not get paid.

I hope it works out for everyone.

[JCurtis]

I just got the mail and guess what was there. A RFP from SMG for several Stop and Shops in Connecticut.

Anyone else get one? Are you going to send in a RFP?


I know I'm not, Mama didnt raise no fool !!!;)

[JD PLOWER]

I don't know if they've changed but Stop and Shop up here used to be all hourly work :nope

Never something we even considered, unless they would pay $150 per hour for a pickup. :rolleyes:

[JCurtis]

Yeah Right, I doubt that they will.

[T-Zab]

Just got prospective bidding info from SMG yesterday. They are looking for bids for Heritage propertys. The list i received was for IL. But the closest property had no address number. Just an intersection, kinda weird considering one is about a 25 acre site. The second is about half the size lol. Anyway the really funny thing is the bids were do last friday, and the package was postmarked the 26th. Guess they are scrambling for contractors.
Todd

[John Banks]

And another cycle begins. If you bid, make sure everything is in writing and everyone has a copy and there are witnesses, not just theirs but yours. I speak from experience. They often don't recall certain conversations, etc and like to change things midstream. Also, if you have a multi-year contract, be prepared for them to tell you after the first year that your prices are too high and they need to renegotiate. It's all happened.

[CT18fireman]

Figure out a way to get your payment sent directly to you or forget it IMO.

Not worth the hassles IMO.

I would rather just work my on accounts.

[InstantRefill]

Negotiations with potential purchaser of assets of SMG complete. Contract prepared-ready to execute. Completion of sale within next two weeks. Upon completion, sub contractors will receive first of three payments . Assumes that purchase agreement is executed this week.
At no time had SMG filed for bankruptcy--and at not time any anybody placed SMG into bankruptcy.

[Lawngodfather]

LGF is buying them out.....

I am paying $2 for the whole deal......

There ya go guys, split it up how you want...

[John Banks]

Congrats LGF! I hope you didn't pay too much. :cash

LMAO!

[gslam88]

LGF,

I will pay you $2.25 for everything you got....

see you can make money at this....... :D


Pete

[Alan]

Originally posted by InstantRefill
Negotiations with potential purchaser of assets of SMG complete. Contract prepared-ready to execute. Completion of sale within next two weeks. Upon completion, sub contractors will receive first of three payments . Assumes that purchase agreement is executed this week.
At no time had SMG filed for bankruptcy--and at not time any anybody placed SMG into bankruptcy.

InstantRefill, you sound like you have some manner of inside information. It might be of help to quell rumors if you identified yourself so that your input might be beter received. There has been a lot of rumor going around and it would be nice to have the straight scoop, but not from someone operating anonymously.

[Lawngodfather]

Originally posted by John Banks
Congrats LGF! I hope you didn't pay too much. :cash

LMAO! Hehehe

Buying into or bailing out a company in finacial pitfalls, is not worth a dime to me.

I read somehere else, all the arguments.

It's a pretty simple deal, contractors have not been paid yet, contractots are furious.

What's stopping these contractors from taking over the accounts they were servicing?

Any contract they had are not complete and have been broken by non payment. A two bit lawyer can have a field day tearing apart a non compete due to non payment.

[John DiMartino]

Instant refill, you have 2 posts here,and no name in your signature. As Alan already mentioned we dont need any more rumors.:headwall

[gslam88]

John Banks.....

I am wondering if InstantRefill ... will be like someone else and bring his identity to his grave....

Pete

[Mark Oomkes]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gslam88
[B]John Banks.....

I am wondering if InstantRefill ... will be like someone else and bring his identity to his grave....

What was more surpising to me was his instant resurrection\reincarnation. lol

[Chuck Smith]

It was announced at GIE that SMG was purchased by Symbiot.

~Chuck

[4evergreenlawns]

Chuck,


Thanks for the info but now who is "Symbiot".

I am not sure what this says about John Allin. Do not take me the wrong way but he has been going around getting a heck of alot of mileage out of the SMG model and success story and I know SIMA has really placed him up on high ground.

I am for sure NO John Allin but I try not to over sell or over extend myself or my company. It would be hard for me to shell out cash for any of his advice hearing how people that got into bed with him ended up.

IMHO the right thing to do would have been to at all cost make everything right with all of the people that help get SMG on hgh ground before getting off the gravy boat. Maybe that would have resolve all of the sour grapes.

At this point it seems that this might all have been more about the quick money than anything else. I will admit I did contact them and ask how to get on the boat. I am just glad the ship sailed and started taking on water way before I had a boarding pass.

I guess the spin will be how he bulit up this huge orginization that he sold at a huge profit. However, I bet that will not be the stroy his subs that did not get paid will be telling. I am sure some will say that SMG was not soley a John Allin indeavor but that sure is how it has come accross for the past two years that I have been watching and reading.

Funny, how I have received two RFP from SMG post marked just two days before the deadline.

[Chuck Smith]

www.symbiot.biz

~Chuck

[Got Grass]

Originally posted by 4evergreenlawns
Chuck,
I am not sure what this says about John Allin. Do not take me the wrong way but he has been going around getting a heck of alot of mileage out of the SMG model and success story and I know SIMA has really placed him up on high ground.


As far as the hole SIMA thing goes, John, was one of the founding members thus board pres for a while. This is why everyone associates him with SIMA. He is no longer on the board (a couple yrs. ago). He will remain one of the founding members (odviously) but his status is of a regular member. ALL SIMA members have a say in who gets eleted onto the board. We would not choose to vote for someone who we do not approve of. The board does and will not make any sweeping changes for the worse. With SIMA we are a TIGHT group of people who only want to grow and promote this industry as a whole rasing the standards of contractors. In turn helping ourself become respected members of society and not looked down on as "some plow guy". Like most of the general public thinks of us now. WE as a group rasing the standards as a whole we raise them for ourselves and more money starts to flow to all of us. It's a lot easier to get ahead with a mass group effort then one little guy crying out to our customers, trying to convince them why we are better then the last guy for the contract of a few pennies.


Of cource any association dedicated to snow and ice will look at him diffrent then most others as he was a leader in this industly for quite a while having the largest company in this industry and is still looked at as one of the most powerfull voices in this industry and he is still highly respecty by many. Unfortunatly SMG burried itself a snowbank it couldnt even plow itself out of and was bought out. I'm sure debitors will collect with time, just like any other company that gets bought out. Multi billion $ companies get bought out all the time.
By no means am I sticking up for John, Simply stating he did a lot of great things for this industry. A lot of things that have directly or indirectly helped ourselfs. Yeah he did a lot of bad thigns as well to many a contractors. But what that in hand we have to take from the good, the bad as well as to learn from not to make the same mistakes ourselves.

[Mark Oomkes]

http://www.symbiotnetworks.com/members/newsletter/index.php?nlID=338

I just received this, not very much more than we already knew\suspected.

[BRL]

I wonder if John will now be reinvited to the Board of Directors of Symbiot?

[landman]

According to the ad in lawn and landscape he is staying on as the head of new contracts and managing the erie pa office. (not exactly word for word but in a nutshell). I hope things work out , now if all goes as planned this deal went through on Nov 4, I think the ad said so I guess I should be receiving our first 1/3rd payment in 2 weeks.

[PSDF350]

so let me ask are you going to still work for them? also why would you if you will be plowing again before you have been paid in full for last year yet?

[landman]

yes we still will work for them the CVS and Wachovia accounts are paid throught the companies directly with SMG as the agent. We only did 2 other sites for them that we are owed money for which SMG held the actual contract and I have talked to "people" and know I will get paid. One of the sites has actually changed hands and is no one of the account anymore and the other is a good account that pays well and with the "new" setup we will see what happens. I have worked for SMG for several years now and have not encountered any other bumps in the road in the past. I am sure we have all had problems in the past and had to work with people to get by and make progress. Not every business is perfect nor without flaws or problems. If I was really getting screwed I would have started problems long ago. I just want everyone to know I am not defending nor promoting SMG but if this recent setup did not work out the way it did A lot of people would have really been screwed over big time and I think SMG values the business and support they have and made the best attempt to do what they could to prevent a much worse outcome.

[4evergreenlawns]

I guess that is a good way to look at things. I am sure in the event I was owed a large sum of money I too would just be thankful that at some point I am getting paid. Getting paid late is still better than taking the loss.

I understand the point you are making about how GOOD things were in the past and that no company is flawless. However, if you are going to be the LARGEST nationwide provider of a service and have been in business of a few decades would it not be correct that you would have already worked out the FLAWS??

I mean, you know, the little things like "paying the people that are doing the work which results in payments to the contract holder"? Again I will add that I am NO John Allin but, my employees get paid "on time" and "correctly" FIRST. Than I pay the bills, than I manage what is left over.

I found the newletter interesting and informative in that, Mr. Allin, sees this as a "win/win/win" I would too if I was in a position to not have had to pay out what has to be 100k'S in payments due to sub and than be able to walk away with the windfall from a merger and still be able to maintain what is going to end up being a well paying position in the new orginization which I previously ran into the ground. Yes, "WIN/WIN/WIN" all the way to the bank. John Allins bank that is.

Landman, I just wonder if all of yous clients told you they hit a bump in the road and it was going to take a year to pay, and than they would pay in thirds, BUT they would still like you to continue service if you would be as supportive?

My suppliers make it very clear that a "line of credit" is not meant to be a means of supporting a companies cash flow. The provide me with materials to do a jon and in return I am expeced to pay in a timely manner. Seems like that is what a SUB-CONTACTORS agreement is as well.

When I read the term of that agrrement some how SMG came into mind. Also LATE payment is hit with a LATE FEE, will this merger result in any late fees to the people owed money?? I am sure there were more than a few companies that had to take loans or extend lines of credit to cover debt that SMG money would have paid off. How does that factor in??

[Mark Oomkes]

Ron, I think you hit the nail on the head. Well stated.

[PSDF350]

[i]

Landman, I just wonder if all of yous clients told you they hit a bump in the road and it was going to take a year to pay, and than they would pay in thirds, BUT they would still like you to continue service if you would be as supportive?

My suppliers make it very clear that a "line of credit" is not meant to be a means of supporting a companies cash flow. The provide me with materials to do a jon and in return I am expeced to pay in a timely manner. Seems like that is what a SUB-CONTACTORS agreement is as well.

[/B]

4evergreen we have disagreed on many things before:) but this is a ? i have asked elsewhere and would have to agree with your analogy . i was always curious if ol John allin got payed, if so how can that happen since there is no profit till subs and other expenses are paid. but i bet he did pay himself.

[4evergreenlawns]

I do not want to send the wrong message and I am not intending on making this a John Allin bashing session. I just want to express how I am viewing things from the outside looking in.

David,

Thank you for your kind words. It takes time to get to know a person.

Mark,

I seem to think that most small business owners would be looking at it that same way. I figure if I have a company than I should be able to make a place for myself inthe market to earn contracts and not have to be in a position to SUB out my company equipment.

[T-Zab]

I figure if I have a company than I should be able to make a place for myself inthe market to earn contracts and not have to be in a position to SUB out my company equipment.




Ron,

Many companys do "sub" out there people or equipment. . Not all corperations, LLC's or sole propreitors hold, and manage there own accounts. Some of our largest employers in Illinois are "sub" contractors.

Just because you "sub" contract does not make you any more or less succesfull as a buisness man. Companys like SMG can be a good thing for many "sub" contractors. Most do pay there bills when they say they will. The construction industry is a prime example of how "sub" contracting can work for many companys to be viable and profitable. Heck I know "sub" contractors who do better then most general contractors.

If you ever intend to work for a management company, welcome to "sub" contracting. You might hold the contract with them, but your still a sub.

Really are we not all "subs"? Your working for a company (or homeowner) providing a service they could provide, but elect to out source for different reasons.

Do you employ subs? Do you look down on them for working for you? Well SMG or 4Evergreenlawn guys, 2 companys who employ "subs" to get the work done. A slightly different scale but both employ "subs". Heck how many of the top 50 Snow and Ice Contractors employ subs.

Honestly I dont think it matters who really holds the Contract. If you make your margin, and your okay with who you work for. Its just buisness as usual. Roll up your sleaves and go to work.
:grinz

Todd

[4evergreenlawns]

Todd,

This has what to do with how SMG left there subs out in the cold but not making payments??

Had SMG owned assests they would have never gotten away with what happened nor would they have been able to grow beyound there means without failing much sooner.

To operate those assest it would have taken employees. To keep employess working you have to make payroll. I know this from running my own company and not subbing and NO we are not all SUBS.

Instead they got SUB's to sign on, stood by and collected payment for the work the subs did and than left the subs hanging by not paying. Now some how they have these people still singing praise after they did not get paid and will only be getting paid in thirds on a schedule set up the NEW company. This being the case John Allin should not be viewed as a bunsiness person but as a profit leading us all to a higher calling the likes of Jim Jones, or David Korash. Maybe there was something in the kool-aid at SMG!!!

Are you implying this is a good thing for subs?

Or are you saying that I should look at this as a viable reason and cause for me not to work hard and get contracts which I am responsiable for therefore, I should go and SUBS out all of my assests and labor force?

To be honest with you Todd, I am really not sure with your point was at all. Did you even read the newletter about the merger?

[InstantRefill]

Sorry that I had not responded before. I am Bob Cohen--I have been working with the SMG for the past few months as their turnaround and crisis manager, attempting to maximize the recovery for the creditors of SMG. If you want to know more about our firm, please see our site at www.centrusgroup.com If you want to contact me directly, email me at bcohen@centrusgroup.com.

At three o'clock today, there will be another meeting of some of the largest creditors of SMG--this meeting is held every week on Wednesday afternoon to solicite their feedback.

Symbiot is the company that has entered into an agreement with SMG to purchase its assets. Yes, they are prepared to pay seventy five percent on the outstanding amounts owed. Yes, the payment schedule in one third in November, one third in October and the balance in June of next year. The new entity will be named Symbiot Snow Management Group. The press release in Lawn and Landscape website discusses the announcement in detail.

Letters were sent out to all SMG creditors yesterday requesting the execution of a release in exchange for the seventy five percent payment schedule. All creditors are encouraged to execute this agreement as not to delay to payment to the other creditors of SMG. It will be in the interest of all creditors of SMG for all creditors to execute the release. A delay on the execution of the release by any of the creditors will result in a delay or possible minimization of payment to any creditors of SMG.

I do hope that this will help sort rumors from fact. I am please to have this opportunity to address the community in this forum. Thank you for the opportunity.

[JCurtis]

Mr. Cohen (InstantRefill)

I think it is rather unscrupulous of you to make several posts here regarding the SMG situation with what we all felt/knew was insider information, long before you identified yourself as the turnaround/crisis manager for SMG.

It tells me alot !

[Lawngodfather]

Gentalman...

We don't know everything about this deal, but I can say you got screwed once..why go back....It will happen againg

[Mark Oomkes]

I get a 'You are not authorized to view this page' when I try to look at www.centrusgroup.com

:confused: :confused:

Anybody else have any luck?

[Lawngodfather]

Originally posted by Mark Oomkes
I get a 'You are not authorized to view this page' when I try to look at www.centrusgroup.com

:confused: :confused:

Anybody else have any luck? HTTP 403 (Forbidden)

[Mark Oomkes]

Well, that too. :D

[Mick]

In the sense of fairness - the site works for me. I just clicked on Mark's link.

[Mark Oomkes]

That's kinda weird. It does for me too. Not sure what is different on mine.

[wyldman]

I just repaired the link,it should work now. :D

[PSDF350]

i am real curious why anyone would go back to work for someone who didn't pay all year, and you know dang well he paid himself. now alls they are giving you is 75% of the money owed no interest or full payment:eek: you guys are either real desperate or fools. you pick i know what i think. great racket skrew most then get to skrew'em again. ol john allin is one slick business men.

[bud16415]

I have been reading these posts for some time now and living in Erie and knowing who John Allin is and watching this company grow etc I never really understood what type of business this is he is running in fact I still don’t.

Would it be possible for someone to explain the whole process you go thru when you work for a contract company such as this. I went to the SMG web page several times and read a bunch of stuff but I still don’t get what it is they do. Am I right to assume that the SMG somehow is a middle man in this endeavor. They find customers, they find contractors and make deals to put the two together. Then they take some sum of the transaction for doing this. Is it a type of employment agency for snow removal contractors with a twist. Is it that they manage the paperwork for you and make you part of a large group and open doors that you couldn’t find any other ways. How do they go about doing this do they have teams of people all over the country that go from town to town or do they advertise locally in papers all over the country? What is their share for doing all this? Does the SMG provide equipment for this or is it all strictly a paper business?
I don’t know if I’m the only one that has no understanding of how this works or is there a lot of people with these same questions and just not asking them.
It seems there are two lines of thought here on this subject and it would be interesting to hear from each the pros and cons of working this way. I have got some of it from reading the posts.
And I guess my ultimate question would be why couldn’t a large group of people like I find here ban together in some form of coalition and do the same thing only do it for the mutual benefit of the whole group.

If someone wants to fill in us novices. It would be great.

Bud

[T-Zab]

Ron,

What I was replying to was your comment about sub contracting. Your right it does not have anything to do with the merger. You stated you figured you own a company, you get your own contracts.
Todd

[BRL]

Bud,
Basically yes to all of those questions. Most of the work they have is for large multi location clients (example: 1,200 plus Wachovia bank branches in snow states( I think that was the number roughly) ). So the client gets the benefit of dealing with 1 company that handles their snow requirements. Then the company takes care of securing contractors to actually do the work & manages that for the client. Instead of the client wasting their time & personnel who are not familiar with snow & ice management to manage their many sites, they have 1 contract with one company. Win win for the client and the general contractor, lose for the subcontractor if the general gets paid & then doesn't forward the part that the subs were supposed to get.

In this particular case, some of the contracts were set up so that the client directly paid the subcontractors, & then paid SMG their cut separately. Those are the examples of people that you have seen posting that they didn't have any problems working with them. Some of the contracts were set up so that the clients paid only SMG & then they were responsible for distributing the subcontractors' share. Those are the examples of people that you have seen posting that had run into problems with getting paid. This is why you have seen 2 sides to the story.

Also, in some locations SMG does also provide their own equipment, & then hired people to operate it locally. So it's not just a "paper company" across the board.

Hopefully that helps you understand it better. If not, let us know.

[Honest Mike]

Want my opinion on this whole mess? I think if John Allin DIDNT have anything to hide, he would be here posting and replying to this thread, afterall, he is a member of this forum, is he not? Much like Bin Laden, hes in hiding at the moment. This is just my opinion, and maybe I am 100% wrong. Mike

[SnoJob67]

Getting paid 100% and on-time is the ideal. Obviously, something went wrong. When Kmart went belly-up nobody said diddly-squat about it. I (along with many more contractors and suppliers than SMG has ever thought of dealing with) got paid about 6% of what they owed. That did not even cover the taxes that I paid on the money that had to be claimed as "income."

Every vendor that sold to Kmart goods or services got screwed and screwed hard in bankruptcy proceedings. Mr. Allin could have gone this route, as well, but he chose to take the highest road available to him under the circumstances...regardless as to whether the circumstances were caused by poor judgement, or not.

The majority who were owed money by SMG have shown more restraint and professionalism than those few individuals that want to stir the pot. I'm not pointing fingers at individuals, but if you feel it is necessary to address this statement, then it c-o-u-l-d resemble you?

Is it fair contractors are getting paid only 75% of what is owed to them? No, it is not. On the other hand, some of the other possible outcomes that were avoided are a blessing for both contractors and what is left of SMG.

I'm no happier to see John Allin have financial difficulty than I am to see fellow plowers paid less than they have coming. Let's remember that this is not a happy time for any of the parties involved, no matter who is at fault.

[landman]

I see the point some of you are trying to make I probably would have diffrent outlook on the situation if I thought it was a really bad deal, Like I mentioned in my earlier post most of our dealings with SMG was for Wachovia/CVS and those compaines paid us directly. We did plow 2 other accounts for SMG where they were to pay us and that is the money still owed to us and as mentioned in the post before mine SMG could have just went bankrupt and given us nothing and left us out to dry. I guess my outlook on the situation is a bit diffrent then others may have. If it was not for SMG our company would have missed out on about $120,000.00 +/- sales for us per season for the past 4 years. We will probably take a $3,500.00 loss on this deal but is better then $15,000.00.

The only thing that pisses me off about the whole thing is that we were left in the cold and SMG was not upfront in disclosing a little more info to us other then having to leave multiple voicemails at SMG just to get a return call saying "don't worry you'll be paid". And then receiving letters and calls from the business brokers. I also agree that John Allin should have "stepped up to the plate" and kept himself more visable rather then go into hiding. That only makes him look more guilty. I am not bashing John Allin but just speaking my opinion.

[PSDF350]

snojob i dont see anyone saying hey kmart just had hard times heck i'd do business with them still if they'd just pay me 75%.

i still say if john allin didn't pay himself then fine company had problms and there trying to make things right. but everyone here nows damn well he paid himself first then kept the rest of the money that was to go to subs. in my book that makes him dirt. good luck working for him.:headwall

[John Banks]

Originally posted by SnoJob67
Getting paid 100% and on-time is the ideal.

The majority who were owed money by SMG have shown more restraint and professionalism than those few individuals that want to stir the pot. I'm not pointing fingers at individuals, but if you feel it is necessary to address this statement, then it c-o-u-l-d resemble you?

Is it fair contractors are getting paid only 75% of what is owed to them? No, it is not. On the other hand, some of the other possible outcomes that were avoided are a blessing for both contractors and what is left of SMG.


SnoJob, I would say that getting paid 100% and on-time is more than ideal, it's the contract, it's the way that business works, it's what needs to happen.

I am responding, as you say it could resemble me, and I take it as a shot at me. That's fine, I'm a big boy, but I posted to this thread, started other threads, even posted in other forums as some have seen, and like I said previously, part of this forum is to discuss with the other contractors and inform them of issues. I would feel real guilty had I never said anything, then next season comes along some contractor who also got burned, but maybe he lost his house, or maybe he couldn't support his family, etc. because he was never paid. It's just not right.

I would hardly say it's a blessing when you wait close to a year to get paid, then someone tries to tell you that they're only going to pay you 75% of what you're owed, and you have to wait another 8 months to get your last 1/3. They try to convince you it's a great deal and you should sign the release immediatley. BS.

I have spoken with a few other contractors so far and I'll tell you that no one is happy and many are not likely to sign the release. This is what I'm being told. Me, I'm not sure yet what we'll do. When I decide, if anyone's interested, I'll let you know.

In the mean time, everyone have a safe and prosperous season!

[bud16415]

John

I couldn’t agree with you more. Selling a business , merging a business shouldn’t excuse you of commitments you have made to others to my way of thinking. If your business turns sour and many do the bankruptcy courts have a clear rules and procedures that handle these things they follow the paper trails locate assist try to figure out what happened and divide what’s left of the pie up. The business and owners then suffers the consequences the court rules out. At least when this happens you are not happy but you have a feeling that the best was made of a bad thing.

In this case no one knows the truth it sounds like to me. In fact what company would stake their money into a merger knowing that the key players they are going to need to fulfill the work they are contracted to do are going to be tainted against them from the get go. What I have been reading here and also all the press releases from the two companies that are merging is all this win win stuff.

I like John don’t see it like that. Is this new company really expecting everyone will fall back into business as normal after this takes place. I would expect everyone would want the short cycle payment system like some seemed to have before at minimum. That in itself is going to put a cash flow restriction on the new company.

Speaking for myself here but if I was attempting to save this as they are trying to do it would require total honesty with each and every person owed money. It would require court intervention in a way that would show intent to repay every penny with interest over some longer time frame that could be logically laid out. But to just pick a number of 75% out of a hat and then a payment time frame out of another hat is clearly rewriting a contract mid stream. IMO

This new company is in for a tough struggle. What bothers me is why would someone want to buy into this in the first place. If SMG was dieing why wouldn’t they just swoop in and scoop up all the work after the fact.

Like I said earlier I don’t have anywhere near all the understanding of this I would like to have and these are just my thoughts after several months of reading this stuff on here.

Good luck to all

Bud

[Pickering Snow]

This whole topic is interesting only because it wasnt til my trip to erie in april did i really get the low down on John Allin. We here in the great north have been spared of his wrath for the most part. There are a few snow managment groups around this area and last year i fell victim to one i lost a whole sector of buss owned in the tri citys up here to company that took on all three citys. I have simalar problems but there with getting paid from property managers , last year at the end of april i had 20k on the books all owed by property management companys i have the balance down to about 5k ican fully understand how everyone here who got screwed feels theworstpart is te same guy that still owes me money is calling me on two hotels wanting to know why he didnt recive a bid from me this year , it takes cast iron balls for a guy to call and ask me that simply said iam not a bank i dont give a **** that te hotels are struggling to make it here and then most days i drive by them 5am and there lots are full. The reason he iscalling me is there is nobody else left he hasnt screwed . So like i said in the retainer thread if this guy comes up with 5k he owes me and 10k deposit ill gladly push snow other wise like motel 6 says will not only keep the light on will leave the snow in the lot has well!!

[Mark Oomkes]

John, Bud and Fred make some excellent points. If this is a win\win\win, why are the contractors that are owed money only getting 75%????? If Symbiot has such deep pockets, why are the contractors that are owed money getting 75% and have to wait how long to get that?

Obviously this is not a merger, it was a bailout. Bud, you are correct, Symbiot is going to have an uphill battle cash flow wise and lining up subcontractors. If there are deeper issues than SMG just getting stiffed $2M (which is one of the stories I've heard), and that's why they didn't pay some of there subs, like pricing issues, then Symbiot isn't going to make any headway either.

We work for Worldcom\MCI. We have since long before their bankruptcy. While everything was up in the air, when we didn't receive a check when we were supposed to, we stopped service. We didn't mow their lawn for about 2 1/2 months. As soon as payments started up, we started servicing them again. We just received our payout from the banruptcy, it was 40% of what we were owed. I wouldn't call this a win\win either, but we weren't told how wonderful this deal was either.

I am going to be a lot more wary of late payments in the future because of this. Especially when it comes around to property managers, out of town comapnies, etc.

[T-Zab]

What no class action law suit ? I think this may be the way to go here. What the heck. The new company broke previous contracts and basically told you what your going to get. Im sure theres a lawyer out there who would take this. What does big business fear the most? Not the little guy, (they can crush you) a class action suit.
There must be something left in Smg for a company to step in and bail them out. Also does anyone know what there total of bad dept is? Is it over 2 mill? Who was the company that owes them 2 mill? I know lots of ?'s Sorry, just think to much. Should quit thinking and just work harder at getting my own contracts. At least thats what I'm told !
Todd

[sonjaab]

TODD......A class action suit is a good idea.....BUT who ends up with the BULK of any $$$$ ? The LAWYERS.................

You or I would get pennies on the dollar................:headwall


HEY !!!! Could you or Garagekeeper post a pic of your new wings? Esp. how they mount. A few buds are interested in them !...............geo

[JCurtis]

Unfortunately, even the courts aren't with the people owed in bankruptcy cases. The laws are in the corner of of the person filing for bankruptcy.

It is time that the Congress change the bankruptcy statutes and give the people a break.

A person filing bankruptcy can keep their house, keep their car and write off almost everything else completely.

and who gets the shaft???? the people and businesses owed the money, as well as the rst of us because we pay to make up for the losses businesses take when someone that owes them files for bankruptcy... Totally unfair !

The laws need to be changed so that the person who files Bankruptcy either has to pay in full,give back the merchandise or sell possessions like cars and houses to make good on their debts.


Just my .02 cents

[Snoworks]

I guess I will think twice about non-payment insurance when my company starts growing. Heck for 80k the 2Million would have been paid by the Insurance company.


As far as getting paid the 75% of balance due. IMO, I would expect Mr. Allin to pay everyone in full, regardless of the circumstances. You make your own bed, and sometimes you have to lie in it too!

Something does not seem right in this merger/deal.

Also, from numbers(dollars) I have heard come from his own mouth, JAA, should be able to pay for most of the 2million from his profits left over from the 2000 Olympics.

Chuck B.

[Snoworks]

Just for the record, I have worked as a sub-contractor for SMG in the past. Actually, i am still under contract for the next year as a service provider for a CVS store.

My opinion is just that, my opinion.

I have met John Allin in years past and found him to be a very likable guy. But what I feel about him skipping out on paying people, makes my stomach turn. Its not right, and he should do everything in his power to make good on all debts.

I think the problem here is the old fall back mentality of business is business. Well, the only problem is the people that helped him make all his money doing his business, could go out of business!

Chuck B.

[Randall]

Originally posted by Snoworks
I think the problem here is the old fall back mentality of business is business. Well, the only problem is the people that helped him make all his money doing his business, could go out of business!

You think he or any other of these crooked CEO type people in todays society care. All you see in the news are crooked people running large companies and screwing the little guy. There are no morales in society. After reading the last two pages of posts, it sounds like the rich getting richer, got in a jam, and now want to keep the screwing going, yet try to convince their puppets they are doing the best they can for them.

Unfortunately, I become more bitter all the time about how the little guy, us, keep getting spanked day in and day out by these people. I'll keep trying to find my own bids, living my own pothetic little company life, and hopefully, jusy hopefully, some day when we meet our maker, if we truly have one, I'll be able to kick some people in the nuts.

[John DiMartino]

Randall,very well said! I agree with you 100%. Whats even more upsetting is our legal system allows these weasles to boast and brag about making millions one yr,then next yr they are trying to make the"best of a bad situation" by screwing the subs that got them there". Due to corporate laws,its all legal.The guys responsible should lose there mainsions,estates and other assets,and be forced to live on the edge of poverty,just like they do to everyone of there subs that they deny payment in full. With that type of incentive you'd see a lot less of these happeneing.

[snowplowjay]

Well tis the season to hit the malls and last night as I finished up some Christmas shopping at a local mall I saw something interesting.

Last winter SMG was the contracted snow removal company at this particular mall and has since lost the contract to a local snow management company from what I understand...

In the rear "Overflow" parking lots there is still what looks to be a half a dozen JRB Pusher Boxes still on site from last winter..................

Seems strange since usually when a contract is over your equipment goes with you.................NO???


Just wondering if anyone else has noticed similar...


Jay

[BRL]

I can think of a couple of possible scenarios to explain that Jay. Remember those guys that didn't get paid for their hard work? Well those are the same guys that have the equipment to load & move that equipment & that are usually hired to do so. I can't imagine they'd offer that service under the current situation. Also, it is not just us subs that have had money stolen from them, some vendors have landed in the same boat as well from what I heard. Maybe there is no intention of removing that equipment for now, so that any potential vendors that are owed money find it more difficult to repossess their possibly unpaid for goods? Also, it will probably take a while for Symbiot to sort through all of the things that were\are going on with their new venture & gather everything up to organize things. Just a couple of thoughts that come to mind based on the theme of the thread.

When they lost some shopping centers I was working at here, the equipment did get moved before the season started, but that was a couple of seasons ago.

[John DiMartino]

Like BRL said ,do you think SMG ever even paid for those pushers?If they didnt,Why do they care that they are scattered all over,RCS would be just another vendor thats getting hosed by the big corporation.Thats loss drives up product prices to us guys.,or knocks them right out of business,Its a viscious circle

[landman]

I'm not the type to steal but SMG owes me money still If it were closer I would probably go get them and hold them for collateral until I get paid if not sell them to get my money. As they say drastic times call for drastic measures. As for what was said above they probably were on a line of credit and if the original vendor can't find them then they can't be repossed.

[gslam88]

Guys,

I believe that the SMG contract was a multiple year contract... and also if I remember correctly.... there were only a couple of malls that were handled in ct... could be wrong... John Banks might know better....

I also think that either someone at JP did say that the JRB pushers were not paid for and that the way that the pusher company was told about it was not proffesional... but that could have been heard incorreclty from me...

Jay... were you down by school or up by home....

Pete

[snowplowjay]

Originally posted by gslam88
Guys,

I believe that the SMG contract was a multiple year contract... and also if I remember correctly.... there were only a couple of malls that were handled in ct... could be wrong... John Banks might know better....


Jay... were you down by school or up by home....

Pete

Local Pete...........Im sure you know where I mean ;)


Jay

[BRL]

"I'm not the type to steal but SMG owes me money still If it were closer I would probably go get them and hold them for collateral until I get paid if not sell them to get my money. As they say drastic times call for drastic measures."

When I had my turn on the whipping wheel, my subs were ready to go repossess the pushers & salt (they had the equipment & storage space, and I still owed them for work they did at those locations). It took a lot for me to convince them to wait a bit & thankfully most of the money finally came through around May for the one plowable snow that season in January.

[Lawngodfather]

If you take that stuff for collateral, you just became a thief, and inturn, let them off the hook to pay you your owed money. Any money you just let them off the hook.


Also now that they been bailed out, it's time for collections suits and you should be paid 100% money owed with intrest.

They bought all of SMG's problems.

So you should expect to get all your money plus intrest.

Persuit it hard and don't give up.

[urethane dino]

Our local mall is owned by Simon Malls, and until this year it was always a local contractor. I see this year that SMG has the JRB pushers on site, and salt storage as well. No loaders to use the pushers on tho. I wonder if SMG has all the Simon malls? This one is in Waterford CT, the crystal mall.
Dino

[parrothead]

i know they dont have all of the simon malls

[urethane dino]

Update
SMG is out, local contractor has all his equipment back on site. SMG has their equip all coralled and looks like ready for pick up. FWIW SMG had 2 Massey Ferguson ag tractors to run the pushers on. Weird.
Dino

[John Banks]

Somehow SMG picked up the Home Cheapo here in Danbury. They have a pusher box onsite, but nothing to push it with. After the second storm I drove through and the lot was horrible. It looked like someone attempted to plow it, but no salt, no sand and ice everywhere. I guess their reputation is making it's way around.