family buss

[Pickering Snow]

Well this year i have made many changes and several more are to follow one being after 16yrs of working side by side in the snow buss myself and big brother are departing ways things have been difficult at best so many times my visions and his are way to diff growth and making good buss deals are not his strong point the only problem i see right know is we hold the dba together for Pickering snow he is asking for a unruly amount to release the dba soley to me which brings me to this sticky question how many on here have had to deal with family buss and making that seperation has painless has poss, i love my brother to death however buss is buss he has contributied very little in the past 6yrs to equipment and other investments and frankly its gonna get messy and sticking in the up coming months any advice would greatly be acepted here.


ps has far has the trucks are concerned all trucks are tiltled threw Pickering Mobile Auto inc. a seperate buss all together thanks

[Lawn Lad]

Fred... I know what you're going through, I went through it with my brother a couple of years ago.

Is the "dba" basically just a shell then with no assets, just a name to run the business through? Does he want out? Or is he willing to be bought out?

Family is family and business is business. However, when the two are mixed it's still tough. I guess the question is... do you take the highroad and offer him whatever he wants to preserve the family relationship? Often with hindsight we look back at things that we were involved in and realized that were holding onto things very tight. You may logically have every argument in the world as to why you may be entitled to larger share of the business than your brother - but you may not be playing on a field of logic if your brother is working off of his emotions.

Ultimately you have to ask yourself what it the emotional burden your willing to carry and what is it worth to you? If you take the high road and cede to your brother's wishes you can sleep at night knowing that you did everything possible to give him what he wanted and no one could accuse you otherwise. However, that may be very expensive and may not be a smart business move.

If you can not work out a reasonable price and negotitians stall, then you may have to look at other alternatives. Do you have a non-compete? What not incorporate a new business (e.g. Pickering Snow, Inc.) and you can begin operating under the new name as the sole owner. It could get ugly if he wants the business as well and goes after the same customers.

Since it appears you did not have a buy-sell agreement in place before all of this arose which would answer these questions you might consider doing the following.

Take a complete inventory of the business. The name, the contracts, the customer lists, equipment, etc. Assign a value to each line item. If this is a 50/50 split agree to buy him out for the value that would be his. If you can demonstrate that you contributed more capital to the business than him, that should be considered a loan and should be repaid. So hypothetically, the $100,000 business owes you $20 K, the remaining $80 is the value and you offer him $40 K. If you can agree that you put in more hours than him and you were under compensated, maybe you can agree on what that dollar amount is and then consider it a loan that has to be paid off (by subtracting it from the agreed upon value of the business).

When all is done, if you buy your brother out, make sure you have a non-compete agreement (drafted by an attorney). If your relationship with your brother is such that you doubt the process you're going through now, protect yourself from the unknown down the road by having the non-compete. Otherwise 6 months down the road it might get ugly.

Well, I've rambled a bit. This is a topic that is near and dear to me. I look back at the experience now two years ago and I'm thankful I made the move to separate, it was draining me emotionally otherwise. I love my brother, but we just didn't make good business partners. Sometimes family business partnerships work and I applaud those who can make it stick, but often, you see the relationships disolve. I wish my relationship was better with my brother today - but it's not. Would I have done things differently, I can't say for sure, but I will say that I don't regret it and am thankful I did make the move to separate.

[cat320]

Fred it's hard when family is involved but I think Lawn Lad is correct in his post on assigning value to everything then deducting what is yours. Business is business but it should not be that harsh with close family in my opinion but I'm a real softy.

[BRL]

"he is asking for a unruly amount to release the dba soley to me...
he has contributied very little in the past 6yrs to equipment and other investments and frankly its gonna get messy"

Sorry to hear about this Fred. I haven't been through anything like this (well, at least until my wife decides she's had enough of me maybe). :D But I'll throw in 2 cents. Like Lawn Lad said, unfortunately you will be dealing with this from an emotional standing instead of a clear business or reality standing (maybe not so much by you, but sounds like certainly by your bro). So I would suggest putting everything down in writing. Show exactly what you have put into the biz vs what his investment has been. Maybe seeing a clear cut list written out will help him understand that he may not be an equal to you, as he presumes too be right now. Maybe he will see the light then & make more realistic requests. If things start off or get real messy while negotiating, an option I thought of that might work is to get an arbitrator involved. That way you both can realease yourselves from emotional decisions & put those decisions in the hand of a third party. An arbitrator will strictly look at the facts of your situation and hopefully come up with a fair resolution, be it in your favor or his, IYO's. Good luck.

[76chevyman]

IS it just a DBA?? Or is it a registered Buss Name(here you have to register buss and DBAs). Here in Ct if you want to keep a name you have to register it. and you have to register it for every county. So if i register in my county a person in the next county over can use the same name i have if im not registered in that town. If its not registerd i would hand him $20 say there ya go and i would go register the name.
This is what i have run into were i am, I dont know about your area

Rich:burnout

[sonjaab]

FRED............I went thru this a few years back when my parents
were divorced. We had 5 bar/rest./hotel business ...All were NYS-S Corps. tho.

It was quite the MESS.....Changing officers, stock divisions,
property transfers, yada, yada.........ENDLESS HASSLE !!!!
NOT to mention the $$$$$ involved...........

The only ones that made out were the scumbag lawyers !!!!!

Still SOME hard feelings to this day !

Only thing me and my mom were left with was 1 bar and her house..........NOT paid for either !

Even LOST my big Wellcraft cruiser boat too !

But we bounced back and bought another motel and are doing
fine...But the hurt still lingers....................

It SUCKS being in business with family or a LAZY
partner ....Especially if you/them don't
share the VISION for the future!!!!!!!!!!!!

Try and work it out if you can without lawyers or family hassle !

I been there and DONE that. I wish GOOD LUCK to you and
hope you can work it out !!!!!!...................geo:headwall

[capnkel]

Hey Fred,i know what your going through,me and my father have worked together for over 20 years,differences in how the business is run has always been a tough topic,thankfully we have always been able to work things out.In my younger days i entered into a 50/50 partnership with a friend doing hydraulics,after a few months of me working like a slave,and him telling me we weren't making any money,i demanded to see all the books,that was an eye opener,needless to say the partnership was hastily ended,with him owing me a sizable amount.I set up shop on my own in no time,after about 7-8 months he had to declare bankruptcy because everyone knew he was an idiot when it came to fixing hydraulics.
I recently went through a rough time with my sister,i sold her a piece of my property behind my house for about 20%of its market value,after building a home there,they decided they didn't want to live there,the house sold at a tidy little profit,the only thing i got out if the deal is a new ******* neighbor,thanks sis,remind me to help you out again.:headwall :headwall

[BRL]

76,
You are lucky! Here its the opposite. You can only register the name in counties where you have an office. So I live in a border town & at some points more of my work is in the next town over, but I can't register there. And I have a somewhat unique biz name that has nothing to do with anything local, and wouldn't ya know it I find a guy on ******** using the same name in the next town\county over. And his posts often times would remind you of that bherit guy almost, just not quite as bad (mainly their posts on customer service & interaction with their customers). What a nightmare. Sorry for the digression Fred and everyone!

[Pickering Snow]

Hey thank you guys for your advice and support Lawnlad i can tell you jave went threw what iam you put your heart into that repley and i thank you , Geo , Brl, 76, Cat and CAP thanks for your support has well .


In the begining of our buss things were done with out alot of paper, handshakes were good enough of course heres were things got out of hand 1 My brother left a lawn care company after several years of service with it he had about two dozen people who went with him he had no money for equipment and the bank wouldnt loan him any money i did i bought and cared the note for him at that time he dba has pickering lawn& snow during the first few years we worked the snow ourselfs a few comercials and alot of subbing here again i owned both plow trucks to shorten this up a little in 98 the guy we subbed for came to ME not my brother and said here ya go fred take care of these contracts there yours iam retiring , the list was over 250 comercial and resi i couldnt do all of them i told my brother we need newer equipment i asked him if he was willing to finance half of the new fleet he said no at that point i purchased 3 more trucks we both agreed it was not a fair split with me owning the most equipment we went to a 70/30 split i then took out a dba for Pickering snow at which time because of his dba and the name Pickering he had to be on my Dba he amd i took it together.

Has the years went by i bought more trucks i handled all the billing and bidding all the cust relations and bought more trucks he over the years became more and more willing to do any of the things that help a buss grow always during this time i would tell him get more money into the buss i will give you a bigger split he once again said no he wanted to stay small he towards the end of this did very little this past year he wanted nothing to do with splitting the weather watching during the night know that doesnt take any money to do LAZY is what its called i will not discuss the numbers cause i dont think i should do that here but its a 6 figure number for snow and he is getting 30% for running a truck and being a team leader sorry its not fair for me!!!!!!


I have purchased close to 1/4 million in equipment and him nothing signed and culivated two 40 unit condos he did nothing to get those not even help bidd.

I told him this he gets no equipment period unless he pays market valve for it What iam giving him is two 40 unit condos thats 80units i just resighned a 2yr deal he is gets 24 cuts [grass] a year both condos thats 44 total plus all the other trimming and maint plus he will have snow he told me to shove it up my @#!

[Pickering Snow]

Didnt know if my post was gonna make it iam sorry for poor spelling and gramer i am very upset right know because of all of this he has told me with the condos iam on my own and good luck being a mechanic and not a lawn maint guy ok smart ass i said i has put together two crews of 2guys each all of the guys quit when he told them of our split the guys came to me and said they were not gonna work for him and asked what they were suppose to do If i didnt already have enough on my plate with the car repair buss i formley hired them back yesterday to work for me threw crappy buss on my part i have a old 42 toro my brother beat the crap out of so i took the best of the 4 guys i hired back made him a manager went to the toro dealer yesterday purchased a 52 and a zmaster bought three string trimmmers a edger and a bunch of other crap the manager said he would need to run two crews trucks i have plenty had one landscape trailer left i bulit last year and i am borrowing a buddys until i can build another SO let the bs begin so hey maybe i better get my but over to lawn site something or what ever you guys suggest and learn something about doing lawn maint before my new manager tells me something i have no idea what hes talking about lol

[Lawn Lad]

Fred... one thing to think about with all the craziness is to downsize until you're sure your manager can handle the work load on the maintenance side. Let your worst customers go - keep the best of, maybe 30 or 40%. Run one crew which you can keep your eyes on, even if it's only two or three guys. Yes, your revenue will shrink but so will your overhead and the time spent fighting fires over on the landscape side won't pull you away from what you do know is making you money... snow and auto. You'll build that quality reputation on those customers that you do have and your business will build back up again. Don't be afraid to turn away the work. You're trying to run three separate businesses (landscape, snow, auto) each of which require your full time attention. Obviously something has to give. Jack of all trades, master of none.

Best wishes with your transition, I'm sure everything will work out. If nothing else, you'll be working your arse off this year!

[76chevyman]

Fred you think just like me. If some one craps on you you crap on them harder. All the power to you. Your a smart man i know you will make it all work even though you have to front a little cash. But thank good you bought all the equipment because that would had alot more crazyness if it was split.
You said that both of you are on the DBA. SO at that point couldnt you guys fight for it in court. I mean you two go to court and you prove your buss to the judge and that you need that name. Then when your brother trys to prove it he has no reason for the name. I know you would like to solve this as civil as possiable, but it seems like your brother is just trying to screw you. Good luck bud i know you will come out on top. If you lived closer to me i would offer my help to you.

Rich:burnout

[cat320]

Well Fred your a guy that will be wearing many hats but I know you will pull thru and do them all well.Hell you were doing 99% of it any ways from reading your posts.You know the old saying you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink,your brother does not really grasp what he has just thrown out the door.You said the magic word lazy all he had to do is put more effort into the partnership and do more of the business end and it would of not evened out but could built the relationship between your two closer and then he could of added more in the way of money for a 50/50 split.Well Enough of my big mouth Fred I wish you all the best in taking all three companies into one.

[sonjaab]

GUYS..........I can see some of you have been thru the mill and
BS over family businesses like I have................
Whats worth what, who owns what, yada,yada........Things that weren't spelled out on paper etc. Just in case these things happened that weren't in place when we got the ball rolling
SADLY!

Hopefully you can work things out PEACEFULLY !!!!

Me and my mom had a tough road to hoe for a while !!!!

She is a GREAT partner.........Only see her once a month when
she rolls up in her NEW Caddy looking for HER monthly piece
of the action...... aka $$$$ !!!!! LOL !

Otherwise she NEVER bothers me about anything.............

She holds up her end of the action running our summer motel
in Alex Bay NY and keeps our condo warm in Daytona Beach in
the winter...............

My poor dad learned his LESSON tho.........His new young wife
ATE thru all his businesses, money , Cadillacs, etc. and let him
BROKE !
Thinking with the WRONG HEAD >>>I GUESS.................Sad but true...............................geo

[Pickering Snow]

Well thought i would give a update knock on wood my new crew of dudes is working pretty good my manager made one suggestion to me the other day about replacing one of the guys he said hes not carrying his weight , i told him i do things by the book so last night we set the fellow down and wrote him up explained what i expected and put it in his file, The other three guys are my plowers they have been with the company for close to 8 yrs there like family to me and i dont forsee any problems even with this troubled young man i wrote up last night he needed to get some stuff off his chest and i needed for him to understand what my manager says is the law and that i didnt have a problem having a meeting last night however from this point forward its was gonna be our way or the highway,

I and the manager bid some city parks last night has well , iam not saying i feel comfortable in lawn care but i guess since iam in knee deep my has well get in all the way i do have some other guys i have interviewed for postions and feel that my manager who is also my wheel man during the plow season is smart and capable of being a good leader and iam gonna go with this .

[Pickering Snow]

Dang wrote all that and forgot to ask what i really needed to ask what do you guys think is a fair package and wages for a manager ing lawn care. right know iam paying him under snow wages letting him drive a truck for work and home i told him i would put together a package that he would like for know hes making a base weekly wage of 600 before taxes plus the truck and fuel n there working over 40 hrs a week right know but clean ups are going on and turf repair from snow plowing so has we get going i expect him to beable to stay at 40 hrs a week.


any suggestions????