Snow Management Group

[John Banks]

Has or does anyone contract with SMG? My experience with them has been a nightmare. They are not well run, but are good at giving the run around when it comes time to get paid. This company is a joke, it's amazing their in business. Now I understand why they came to us at the last minute when they had no other contractors in the area to do work. We have gone above and beyond, but of course now I'm having to fight them to get paid. Absolutely Ridiculous!

What's been your experience?

[JD PLOWER]

We have no experience with smg as far payments of bills or contracts go so I can't help you there. However I have seen properties under their control in this area and the contractors who plow them. These contractors are known as habitual lowballers and their work seems to reflect that reputation.

Good luck and I hope you get everything your owed.

[SLC1]

We have worked for them for over 4 years and have excellent luck with them. Have never had any problems getting paid and have given us a decent amount for our work, they have paid within 45 days or less, and have only had a few problems with some invoices, I know that they have grown alot in the past few years and maybe you are experiencing some of their growing pains. I would say to stick it out, because I think that they are going to be around for a while and they may be good to know that you can work for them. Just My two cents

www.schmidtlawncare.com

[snowplowjay]

As an engineer I am actually worried about one of their practices at The Meriden Square Mall in my town. I noticed this winter that a load of snow was loaded up on the roof of the parking garage and left there for quite a long period to melt and refreeze. And as everyone knows this causes a tremendous dead weight on the structure which in turn creates tremendous structure stress' and strains. As a patron of this particular mall who likes to use this particular garage I felt very unsafe and mentioned the conditions to a mall staff member who was also alarmed to hear of this.


I was very shocked to see the SMG pushers parked in the lower garage after seeing this pile of snow on the roof.



Jay

[Snoworks]

I have worked for SMG for the past two years. And I have experienced some payment problems in the past. Well, it was not a matter of getting paid, only a matter of when.

Last year they had some issues early on in there first year of OR(Owners Rep) service with CVS. It took a few months to get the first invoice paid, but after that, they came like clockwork every two weeks.

This year I had similar problems with my first invoice, but after that, again the invoices got paid every two weeks.

I believe that this years problems with payments and invoices was due to a lack of help, IMO. They just have to many subs. vrs. number of people to take care of them. I emailed JAA about the issues, and he got my problems straightened out the next day!

Chuck B.

[PineIsland]

We found that they are definately driven by the lowest prices, and thus they will tend to always have the "lower end of the local plowing spectrum" plowing for them.

It didn't matter how well you did for them in the past, didn't matter if you were SIMA members, etc, when someone came in a couple dollars lower than you in your market...

However, on a national scale, the few bucks they saved per plow by dumping us saved the companies they work for large amounts of money, and that is the name of the game now- a- days it seems.

[cat320]

I feel that is the name of the game in every business today.:mad: Price governs who gets the work does not matter if your recomended, your work is great or if you have done other jobs excelent and where there when you said you would be,Every thing goes out to bid and the lower price no matter how bad the job will be will get it untill something happens. then you will get called to do it the right way then it starts all over again .THERE IS NO LOYALTY ANYMORE>

[Snoworks]

Price for contract awards was the only factor! I had 4 stores last year and only got one this year. I kept the contract because the money was right! As far as low ballers go, after a few years they have to be weeded out, just based on overhead costs to due business. IMO, subcontract(prime contractor) work like this will go in cycles from year to year. High to low, low to high, etc.

One thing that I do no, I will not lower my price based on what other people are charging. The biggest problem I had with these accounts was how to be competitive when bidding several stores. I have no problem lowing my price, if I can find a way to be more productive, etc.

There realy was no way to due this when each store was 20 min. away from each other.

Chuck B.

[John Banks]

Snoworks, if you don't mind me asking...how is it that you get paid every two weeks? Our contract from SMG states that we bill them at the end of each month, and they are to pay us net 30 days, which btw, has not happened yet. Therefore, we could be, have been and are out greater than 60 days waiting to get paid.

It's interesting what I have found out about SMG in the last week. I sent and email to a few people including John Allin and the insulting, rude email I rec'd back from John Allin, come to find out, he never intended for it to get to me, but it did.
Looks like their MO is to hold up a lot of people for a lot of money, while lowballing these malls and corporate parks to get their business.

BS if you ask me.

[Snoworks]

John,

Give me a call. 847-561-3197

Chuck B.

[John P]

Its the same old story with jaa hold on to as much money as possible invest it turn a little more profit on it,then pay only the contractors who scream the most and let the other subs wait for there share.Nothing new here jaa hires for the most part those subs that will work for less only keep a handful off good subs.I find it interesting how he holds himself to such high stadards but yet rarely does he practice what he preaches.Those of you who know jaa on a personal level 4 years ago know the real jaa.Greed and ego is this guys motto.The pathetic thing is i was one of several contractors who got him started nationally as we were just opening our doors to him to help each other out and little did any of us know he would take our kindness and turn it against us.
Those of you who know the real jaa,its only a matter of time before he implodes.The downside is he will take alot of good accounts and reduce the profit potential on them as well.
John Parker
HEY JAA CALL ME IF YOU HAVE THE BALLS,most snakes lay low

[Snoworks]

I am not here to bash anyone, or turn this thread into an ugly eye sore. But, I do believe this thread can be used in a positive way.

I joined ********, Sima and Snowplowing-Contractors to join a group of people that had similar goals and visions for the future of snowplowing. I belong to this site and Sima to learn, help teach others, and build up our reputation as snowplowing professionals.

How can we avoid such issues, like the one John banks has explained. Or how can we as avoid these issues as subcontractors. Is the answer, not to due sub. work, to others that dont pay, etc. I think we have to handle issues like this as a group.

Here is a quick example: I plowed a Menards last year, and they stiffed me for alot of money. Found out from other contractors that they were in the same boat. Well if we all join together, and dont bid any Menards stores as a group, maybee our voices will be heard. There are power in #s, at least that was what i was taught.

I just dont understand the mentallity of larger companys that need(NEED), the smaller subcontractors, to operate. Then drag them out, or worse yet never pay up.

Are we not trying to bridge the gap and bring people(company's together), with our efforts here and elswere.

This is a tuff issue, sorry if i rambled.

Chuck B.

[Lawngodfather]

I've been though hard times when not being paid and subs screeming for money. I did what ever I could to help them out since I broke my promisses to them.

One guy I put all his fuel on my credit card as my payment to him.

I have heard a lot of the JAA stories, and once they start adding up all the MO's seem to match

[Pelican]

Snoworks, I think the answer is to continue providing quality service at a fair price. There will always be a percentage interested in nothing but price, they will get the service they pay for. Until the day comes that cream is found at the bottom of the pail, I'll continue to operate in this manner.

If the time comes where I must sacrifice quality to remain in business, I'll find another method of income.

[JD PLOWER]

US Maintainance and SMG apparently have something in common. :rolleyes:

My opinion of SMG dropped tremendously when I learned who would be servicing their accounts in this area. The guy is a notorious hack. He subs everything out at rates that are 20-25% below the going rate for subs and probably doesn't pay that well since he seems to have many different subs servicing the same accounts during the same year. He does many of the low rent commercial sites that don't have on site ownership and don't listen to managers complaints when the job isn't done correctly or done at all. These owners are the real problem since they tolerate this sub standard work and even encourage it by giving contracts to this guy and people like him to save as little as 100 dollars, ONE HUNDRED DOLLARS :headwall

As far as I'm concerned these owners and contractors deserve each other and they deserve exactly what they get.

[urethane dino]

Johnny Parker
Good to see you over here.
Dino

[cat320]

I rember this saying when I here about guys like this :

The bitterness of poor quality lingers long after the sweetness of a cheap price is forgotten.


Now in the snow and ice business it may be as long as all winter or a few weeks depending on the temps.

[Rob]

John B.
I'm really sorry to hear that you are getting the run around for your hard earned cash. Can I ask how long before the start of the plowing season did you get this account? If I remember from seeing the postings on here correctly, it was in the October / November timeframe? I wonder what happened to the previous contractor? Doesn't matter really, just curious.


originally posted by John Banks
he never intended for it to get to me, but it did

Post It !!!


Again, really sorry to hear that you've gotten the run around.

[snowplowjay]

Well a few things come to mind after reading everyones posts.


First of all:

Practice what you preach in business. The best businessmen are the ones who are honest no matter what the situation. If your signed to a contract..........stick to it to the fullest extent whether it benefits you or hurts you more in the end.


Secondly:

Keep your friends close but............Keep your enemies even closer. Thats the best way to know what they are up too or planning.


and lastly:

Learn from your competitions mistakes. Yes they may succeed time and time again by negative means but in the end everyone gets their just due.

TAKE PRIDE IN YOUR MORAL AND ETHICAL PRACTICES BECAUSE YOU KNOW YOU'LL SLEEP BETTER AT NIGHT BEING A FAIR HONEST BUSINESSMAN.


Jay

[JD PLOWER]

Jay's copy of Sun Tzu's "Art of war" must be in. :D

[John Banks]

Thanks for all of your help and support guys/gals. I sincerely appreciate your time and efforts. Not only the posts seen here, but I have rec'd many phone calls and emails from others with their tales of woe and support too.

These issues have exploded far beyond what I could have ever imagined. I have found out things about SMG in the recent days that would make your stomach turn.

Jay - I agree with sticking to the contract, and we have. While it has been tough, and even though they breached the contract months ago, I have continued to work according to the contract.
John Parker - you've summed it up quite well.

Don't get me wrong guys, I'm not a gossip hound and do not like talking about people behind their backs and am in no way trying to bash anyone.

Rob - Thanks. I signed this contract on 12/5, which for those in the North East will no doubt remember that we had the huge 2' snowfall that lasted 3 days. Like I've said, I originally turned down the contract as there were a few issues that I had with their contract,eg indemnification and insurance requirements. I was told that we could work through the items in the contract and I thought we had until I rec'd a letter from SMG's Risk Management Dept. saying that the changes in the contract were not valid and the party that I spoke with, I'm sure you all know who, did not recall having that conversation. Therefore, if I wanted to get paid, I had to increase our insurance provisions, etc. I have an email from the party supporting my case and I have turned it over to my attorney.

I did ask about the previous contractor and the story I got was that SMG had just rec'd the contract only days prior to them calling me. They had attempted to contact the previous contractor but he refused to work for SMG. Wonder why?

I have thought about posting the rude email from JAA, but like Jay says, I'm trying to remain professional. We'll see how this plays out and perhaps at some point I will. I have also turned that over to my attorney.

Thanks again to all of you.

[Rob]

John,
You're right... posting that would not be professional at all. If it was me.. I wouldn't post it and didn't think you would, but I did think that suggesting it might give anyone from SMG that might be here the thoughts that their laundry could very easily be aired in a public forum !

BTW - I ride past that mall almost daily on the parkway. You did a great job there and more than deserve you cash IMO.

[John Banks]

Thanks for your kind words Rob. As with everyone else here, we always try to go above and beyond and exceed the customers expectations. It carries through with all of our construction work too. It's my name on the business and I believe in doing things right and treating people well.

[Randy Clarke]

Well I will start by saying there is 2 sides to every story...now that's out of the way.
I have had contracts with USM for 4 years now and I can see that other companies are striving to get under that sewer pipe also. If it where not for the property managers that I deal with who are subjected to using USM I would have quit long ago. I can honestly say that this is their worst year for paying as in I have not been paid. I've been inundated with paper work from USM risk management etc. yet they don't have a clue about the INVOICES.
I also pay my subs every 2 weeks, I would be out of bussiness if I depended on these paper giants......

[Big Nate's Plowing]

lol this is the hot topic some where else (PS) and the guy that posted about having a hard time with collecting is getting a new a$$hole reamed from a bunch of people stating that JAA is the god of snowplowing......

I had a chance to bid on 16 CVS stores in the area, under one condition, I had 2 mil in liability insurance.. the last thing I wanted to do was bump my ins policy 1.5 mil only to find out I didnt get the job, and the other thingwas that it was at the managers dscression when services were preformed and if they would pay, my lawyer told me to RUN, not walk but RUN away as fast as I could.

well they got the joe blow working for booze money doing it, stopped and asked him about the bid exc. turns out he was cold called and offered work for $45 an hour so he took it, last time I saw him he still hadnt been paid anything, I kinda feel sorry for the guy because I know he is going to be stiffed:(

[Adams Plowing]

Just a thought If youve been screwed by SMG and you happen to be comming to jerres on the 3rd bring proof of him not paying and such im sure the local news stations and the paper would love to do a story on that...

[Lawngodfather]

Have you followed all steps to collect yet?

[John Banks]

Godfather - I take it you're addressing me here. In one word, yes. The short version is that I have contacted everyone from our field supervisor/rep right up to JAA. It's a different story every time. When I mentioned that I would turn this over to my attorney, they did not even wince. It's almost like they're telling me to get in line. Give it to your atty, that's bound to drag things out with more letters, etc.

I finally told them I was going to lien the property.

Like Nate said, I did post this on PS to see what would happen there. It's interesting to say the least.

[Lawngodfather]

Some one doesn't care about you...

Pull a union strike on him.....That will get attention fast.

[BRL]

Been there, done that...

It has taken a couple of years now to find these stories comical, but I can smile about it at least now.

SMG still owes me around $300.00 for work they say I didn't properly call in during the 2001-2002 season. But at that point, I was OK with it, because I did finally get the rest of the money they owed me. They acknowledeged that I may have been the one that cleared that snow that time. But since I used my home phone for that one particular call in, I couldn't prove that I did it. Luckily I had made the other dozens of call ins on my cell phone. I was told that I hadn't made all of those call ins also. This was after I had been trying for a while to get paid over 16 grand that was getting to be anywhere from 30- 60+ days past due (multiple contracts, multiple invoices). All of these contracts were explicitly written with payment terms of Net 30. So I finally got most of those checks after sending in my cell phone bills from the winter with all of the calls they said I didn't make highlighted. Thank God for Verizon Wireless' detailed records!

This came as a total surprise to me. I had done First Union work for them the year before with no problems. And I had recommended to many other contractors that they join the team. I was also told by a couple of the employees there that I submitted some of the most detailed paperwork & call ins out of all of the contractors they had to work with.

Here's where it gets comical. When some of these monies were over 30 days late & I started asking when it would come, I was told that I wasn't paid because the client hadn't paid SMG yet (on the biggest contract with the most amount past due). No where in the contract did it say I would get paid when the client paid SMG. But here's the kicker, I called the client's AP department because they are a property management company with a very good payment reputation in this area, and alas, SMG had indeed been paid for that work. Now you can't pay writers on sit coms to come up with comedy like that.

So that's when I really became concerned about just what I had gotten myself into. There were many other excuses for the delays in payments, but this post grows too long already. I was also very upset & took it very personally, and felt quite betrayed by John after I thought we had become "buddies". But then I started talking to a lot of other contractors involved in the same contracts but in other locations, & they told me similar stories. So that made me feel much better actually.

The thing that stunk was that SMG did not have all of the specified equipment lined up for the sites I was managing for one of the contracts. So when we had to plow the 1 plowable snow we had that year, I scrambled & hired some of my friends & subs to help out with 2 large sites, because at the time I assumed SMG was good for the money, based on my experiences the year before. My subs were fine with Net 30, but not too happy with Net 60 +, especially since it was just my word the day of the storm, not a formal bid process or contract deal like we would normally do. Had I known I wasn't going to get paid for so long I would have never done that, because I did not have the money to bankroll that large of a contract & to guarantee payment to my subs. So I ended up having friends & subs pissed at me & knocking on my door every week looking for money I just didn't have. I am so glad we only had 1 plowable event that year or I would have surely gone bankrupt. I also had 3 or 4 of those contractors just about talked into joining SIMA, but after they saw how SIMA members treat their fellow SIMA members they said "no thanks". It's a shame that that one bad experience negated all the positives I had told them about the association. I also did not renew my membership after going through that experience.

Many of the larger contractors that I talked to who had been through similar situations didn't seem to care. They seemed to be used to having large contracts (or small according to the person's perspective) get paid very late, and were happy as long as it eventually showed up. But hopefully this thread can keep at least one other small contractor like my self from having to experience something like this. Unfortunately I hadn't heard about any of this until after I was involved.

The good thing about the whole experience was that I learned how to manage large site work (there's at least one bright spot in everything, right?). My usual accounts were from 10,000 sq ft to 6 acre sites. The 2 large sites I managed for them for the one contract were shopping centers that I didn't measure, but I'd say they were in the 15 acre range & not set up for easy snow plowing. The morning after that 1 plowable event I got several compliments from people working in the stores as they came into work. And they had a company that cleaned the site on a daily basis & the day shift guy stopped me at one point to say we did the best job he had seen there in years of working there. Also the property management company had sent SMG a letter thanking them for a wonderful job with the sites. Hopefully I will get another stab at that type of work in the future as it was enjoyable and I am confident in my ability to manage it correctly. So I thank John & SMG for that opportunity & for the training. But I'll respectfully decline any future offers ;)

[Adams Plowing]

Originally posted by John Banks
Godfather - I take it you're addressing me here. In one word, yes. The short version is that I have contacted everyone from our field supervisor/rep right up to JAA. It's a different story every time. When I mentioned that I would turn this over to my attorney, they did not even wince. It's almost like they're telling me to get in line. Give it to your atty, that's bound to drag things out with more letters, etc.

I finally told them I was going to lien the property.

Like Nate said, I did post this on PS to see what would happen there. It's interesting to say the least.

Like i said come up for the bbq and have a nice chat with the media up here they'll love a story like that and once it hits im sure they'll strongly consider paying to end the bad publicity...

[John Banks]

In the interest of keeping this thread fair and balanced, I must tell you that I did just receive a check from SMG. It even included our last invoice for March. They do still owe us for the retainage that they withheld from each payment.

Regarding the site that we do, I can't take all the credit either. We work with another contractor, Cariati Development from Meriden. They are great to work with and are very professional. Unfortunatley though, last I knew they had not gotten paid either.

I rec'd another email from an SMG employee last night. He seems pretty bitter and says that I'm good at fighting someone who has his back turned. BS. Maybe he was finally having trouble going to sleep last night.

Again, you guys/gals have been great with all of your support. If there's anything I can ever do to help any of you here, please never hesitate to ask. I sincerely appreciate everything.

Best Regards to All.

[Pelican]

Sounds like a case of squeaky wheel syndrome to me.

Glad to hear it's working out John.

[Prosno]

Any new news John? checking on a update:confused:

[John Banks]

Hey Bill, nothing new except a few more conversations with some folks such as yourself.

[Randy Clarke]

Good to hear your moving ahead John... I have taken a different route with my USM situation. I have gone to the property owners and explained once again this problem of none payment. Another contractor who is in a worse situation has done this also. He has not been paid for any work completed over the last 7 mos. He has not pushed the issue since USM threatened to sue him last year for prior work that was considered sub-standard under their contract.
The property managers finally believe that calls are not returned by USM and after a number of days they are told that the USM account manager has been changed. This is an interesting point as we where never told this even though we have been directing our monthly invoice directly to that person by e-mail which by the way they will not reply with a reciept that we request. It is nice to know if they have them.
The property manager called, and has talked to the new USM person and all he could say is "jup they haven't been paid this year and he would be talking to the last manager about that."
Our contract stipulates that we have the USM supplied work-order signed at the completion of each service....so there is no denying that the work was not completed to standards.

I will give everyone a hint as to the company I am speaking of...
Shawn Connery a.ka.a James Bond does a voice-over for their adds in the morning on CNBC and CNN during money reports.

Another yearly event from USM is the standard letter that if all winter invoices are not recieved by the 15th of April they will not be honoured. Interesting that all their correspondense comes via e-mail?

[cat320]

I delt with a management co that did kinda the same thing strat off talking to one guy about the property then if there's a problem from there stand point another one steps in then they play off one another so you don't know how the hell is in charge.And to me that is low and sneaky business ethics or quite frankly stupid peole that think i will not hunt them down for :cash that is owed for services that are done correctly.

[Prosno]

Any new news John? just wondering how your making out

[Randy Clarke]

well to my surpise my issue with USM has been resolved....there was no return contact from them during this entire issue but they Fed-ex a chq. for the entire season.
I did call and thank their person for this. They need to know I'm a bussiness person but I do not care for this excercise to be paid.

have a good summer everyone