Goofy situation

[Crimedog]

All right. Here is the situation. I bought my truck (94), and am paying for it out of my own pocket. We decided to hang the Blizzard on the front this fall, because we need 2 trucks. My dad bought the Blizzard. What happens is, if it snows on a school night/day, I usually take a few hours off of school, and go plow for about 6 or 7 hours in my truck, and someone else finishes. If it doesn't fall on a school day, I use my truck. Either way, it usually gets used for 10+ hours during the storm.

Now, before we put the plow on, my dad and I both said that he would "rent the truck" from me for the storms. Now, I have to pay for the truck, and whatever minor things have gone wrong with it (u joints, vaccum switch, also temp gauge and things like that), and put all of them in myself. I hate to say here is what I want for $$$, because, you know, he's my dad. But he doesn't come out and offer a price either. We really need to get it worked out on a per storm or per hour basis. If you were in my shoes, what would you charge him? We bill at around $100 per hour, and I figure a sub contractor with a plow will push for what, like 50-60 an hour? So if he bought the plow and I bought the truck, maybe like $30 per hour? Anybody have any brilliant ideas? It sucks being in situations like this with your family members:headwall :headwall

[JD PLOWER]

Matt I here you. I have worked with my father for almost fifteen years and the issue of money has come up in that time :D

My best advice is think this thru in terms of amounts and percentages. The reason I say that is if your too low you'll have to ask him for a raise. If your too high he'll have to tell you he's not making enough money and he needs you to take a pay cut. Neither situation is a good one as you might have guessed. As far as what to charge in terms of amounts that is something that you and your Dad will have to workout together. I will say this, it seems to me an overall charge of 100 per hour is a little low, but not being from the area I really can't say for certain. I think the idea of renting the truck is a good one and maybe you could start at that rate then move on to your driving rate. BTW is he paying the companies insurance? All expenses have to considered when you discuss a per job price vs. a per hour price.
Good luck.

[MDsnowPRO]

I pay subs $75 per hour. I think if you were my family, I think $45-50 dollars an hour would be fair. I think 20 bucks when someone else is driving. Just my opinion.

-Nick

[John DiMartino]

Matt,you are in a tough spot. Here in Ny i wouldnt run a truck,with an operator for 30 an hr,even without a plow.I woudlnt even start it for that little.IMO,decent drivers are 15-20 here an hr. add a truck,with fuel,wear,and teart and expenses,your better off parking your truck,and working for someone else,your doing more than $10 an hr worth of damage/wear/fuel expense to your truck an hr.
I feel part of the problem is your dad,IMO.Billing at 100 an hr with an 810 Blizzard is way to cheap in my market,its under 1/2 what the market will pay here.If your in a snow belt I understand the market is different.finally that plow is heavy and hard on the truck,but its productive,So i have no complaints running mine at all,but mines making me a lot of money.Maybe you could swing your own plow next season,and get the full 65-80 an hr that truck should be getting.The plow would pay for itself in inder 200 hrs.

[cat320]

It is a hard situation to be in.You could go in partner with him and then just split every thing ,but would be hard to do now but I think it still could be done.Because like John says the plow will be payed for .

[Lawn Lad]

If I understand correctly, your dad plows his own truck and you plow your truck, unless someon finishes up your route in your truck when you have school. Who pays the driver in your truck?

Who's business is this? Who writes the contracts and assumes the risk under the business name?

Your father having ownership in your plow makes the situation a little sticky. Why not make the purchase price a loan and pay him back. Then you own the truck/plow and are free to do what you want with it. Plow for a fair rate - what you might get elsewhere working as a sub - or what your father would have to pay someone else to plow for you. With the fair compensation you should be able to pay for your repairs, the purchase and finance of the truck plus put some money in your pocket.

If this is a joint venture then you've got other considerations which I'm not touching on here.

[Rob]

I agree with Lawn Lad, there are a lot of questions just from a business perspective as to who is assuming risk, running the business etc. etc. and that alone makes it hard to give an opinion. Then bring the family variable in and it becomes that much more complex. Questions like do you live in your fathers house, do you pay rent, does he pay for your schooling etc. all start to sneak into the picture. Perhaps your father thought you were simply helping him out because you enjoyed it and you wanted to learn the ropes. He did buy the plow after all. I don't know your market, but it may have made more sense to him just to hire a sub, but wanted to help you out and get a leg up on your own business. (Like I said, I don't know the situation... I'm just throwing out some ideas based on the little bit of info in your post)

Realistically, you should have thought about all this BEFORE you did anything and worked out a deal with your dad then. Now, you're going to go back and try to get paid for work that you / your truck did but had no agreement for. Sadly, I get the sense that no matter how it works out there wil be some bad feelings.

[ratlover]

First I would recomend thinking about what would your oppinion be if this wasnt your Dad? I would try to deal with this from a biz standpoint and try to forget the family deal, just try to be fair to both of you. Take into account all the beifit you recieve(not just $$ but also maybe use of a shop.....apprenticing under an experienced guy, being under his insc maybe?) and all the extra he benifits like "saying hey, on your way from school could you knock back a drift" and you spending 2 minutes doing it and not charge him the way you probably would if you were a sub or just being more productive than a regular sub might be. Take into account all that you both recieve from each other, trying to factor out the fact your father son.

He bought a 4500$ plow for you and what was expected in return? He expected to be able to use your truck a certian amount of hours. I view the plow not as a gift right....more of a loan type thing to benifit both of you guys. There is alot of trust needed for a deal like this so its not like he would be doing it for any yahoo. Problem is you kinda screwed yourself by not having clear expectations set up from the begining, now you've got to go back and try to find something fair. Easiest way would be to buy the plow and loan your truck at a fair rate. You cant really try to figure what a fair rate for renting the truck IMO because the plow is his and the "loan payment" was figured to be use of the plow right? So maybe untill the loan term(you guys need to come up with this) is payed off he should just be resposible for the extra matinence(what he breaks or maybe an oil change) and gas. If you dont like thses loan terms then maybe you should figure another way to pay off the blade and then you can lease him your truck at a normal rate.

Its a tough spot to figure fair compensation since there are all kinds of side perks I'm sure you are both recieving.

[Crimedog]

Thanks for the ideas, guys. I will clear up the situation a little bit more. Here is the story, from the biginning:rolleyes: Basically, my dad was a computer contractor for a long time, then 9/11 hit, and the job market crashed. He was getting sick of it anyways, so he did a 180 and bought a lawn and snow business from my employer at the time. Last year was our first season in lawn care, and this winter was the first for snow removal. Needless to say, we were in kind of a tight spot financially, as he was unemployed for a while. The 80 chevy came with the plow business, and we needed another truck. Here is where my truck came in. Since were were a little tight, I kinda felt like I had to put my truck for something. He makes all the final company decisions and insurance and things like that,with lots of input from my brother and I.

I understand COMPLETELY about how the Blizzard should be getting billed for a lot more than 100. I keep telling him at least 130, but he keeps saying "at least its work:headwall :headwall

I really like the idea about buying the plow from him, because I can take it up to college with me in a year and a half (I am a junior in HS right now). It just sucks doing these sort of things with family members, especially when you have something at stake.

This reminds me, a couple of months ago, a buddy of mine asked me if I would have known when I made the decision what I know now, would I still have made the decision? At the time it was yes, but now I don't know... :rolleyes:

[Pickering Snow]

Crimedog

Ijust finished reading all the posts including your last one know my repley is a little different first off it is tough being a family buss i have had to deal with aot of things working with my brother at one time he owned a 87 f350 dump truck i would pay him 50 hr for him and the truck plus his fuel. He sold the truck and starting using my trucks he drives the 02 and i pay him 35hr has my brother and very silent partner meaning he puts no money into the buss but does manage and run my north end route i also give him between 4-5k bonus at the end of the year depending on the seasons numbers.

Ok one thing i have to say here i feel your truck should be worth at least 50hr but i have to add this you being a jr in high school do you think you dad would be wrong to say you are living under his roof and ill be honest it gets kinda tuff from there out because he is supportting everyone involed here just trying to share both sides of family buss.

[Randy Clarke]

Hi Matt, I don't want this to sound like a dump on you but I notice the company has a new skid steer you where playing in building a snowcross track in the horse pasture.
That is a benifit of a family bussiness. When I worked for someone before, I could use equipment for personal use but still payed a substanially lower rate back to the owner.
I think you need to look into what you guys are really profiting after the work to get a fair price on what your truck is worth per hour. It's always good thinking to work at getting the rates up but that takes time and you guys are new to your clients. I have a couple of clients that are charged on the high end of the scale and they also are 90 day pay periods but I still have to pay my sub every 2 weeks because he does not care if I get paid or not. Your Dad probably has some slow payers but you all still live in the house together. Matt you need a fair rate and your market will determine the prices...remember you getting experience that will benifit you for a life time.
Good Luck

[BKrois]

I see your dad has a new truck, why not just transfer the plow over to that now?

[Crimedog]

BKrois, I like your idea. We will probably put another Blizzard on his next year, though.

I guess I made the situation sound worse than it really is. Part of it I was kind of sub-consciously ranting and raving, because I haven't gotten paid for a while, and I had a truck payment due, but that is taken care of. You guys definitely gave me some good ideas. In fact, I am pretty sure that I will buy the plow from him after next winter and take it with me to college.