Alternator Upgrade?

[GLS]

I am wondering if I need to upgrade my alternator and or battery on my truck.

Currently, I run:

-Federal Signal Highlighter minilightbar w/ 2 55W halogen bulbs (8.6 amp draw)

-2 Aux backup lamps 55W each

-Western plow pump

-Of course headlights, heater, and radio.

-Possibly a 90W 4 head hideaway system (undecided)

The truck has the stock alternator (code K60, I think 100 amp)and single battery.

I havn't ran the plow with the new lightbar and backup lamps yet. Should I upgrade to a larger alternator? A second battery?

If I need a larger alternator, how large? Where can I buy it?

Any info would be appreciated.


Thanks

[HerkFE]

There has been some discussion about this before and there seems to be about an equal amount of opinion recommending each of your two options: A. Larger Alternator and B. Second Battery

I personally like the larger alternator. (I need to get one too.) I would rather be able to MAKE the power when needed vs. draw the power from a battery or batteries that has to be charged as it is being drawn down. If you do a lot of commercial plowing where the plow is in use constantly you could concievably reach a point where your batteries can't keep up and your stock alternator will overheat and then..... lights out.

By having an alternator capable of putting out all the needed amperage without having to rely on the batteries for back-up you significantly reduce this chance. More power is better if you ask me.

Now, that being said you may have to do a little figuring as to pulley size, to ensure the alternator is producing sufficient power at lower rpm speeds. I would look for a reputable auto electric shop for this advice. A shop who deals with police/emergency vehicles will be able to answer thiese questions too.

There are several places that can supply you with a larger output alternator. You may have to go to a larger frame size and do some pulley swapping. Although more expensive I think this is a better course.

Hope this helps!

Pete :usa

Ok guys....who's next with their thoughts? :beatsme

[Alan]

If you are on ebay at all, do a search (by seller) for "alterstart". They are rebuilder out of Texas and have quite a line of hopped up alternators. I've got one of their 200 amp units on my 91 S-10. They claim this one will put out 100 amps at idle and I believe them. They use a bigger case than the stock unit and it doesn''t seem to run all that hot.

This is the only one I've got, so it's not a big data base to judge from, but it won't be the last. After making a long push with the downpressure on and then lifting the plow there is always a drop in the voltmeter reading. With this one it is back to showing 14 volts before you're even clear of the pile.

I think their email is alterstart@aol.com.

[wyldman]

I'd add a second battery first.The extra battery adds more reserve capacity.It gives the alternator more time to catch up.The added reserve capacity keeps voltage up,and electric components will last longer.As voltage drops,amperage or current flow goes up.It's the current that creates the extra heat,and damages components.The plow motor is one example.

Like Alan said,you need a bigger frame alternator.It will deal with the added heat from the higher output.It also means better low speed output and higher continuos output when hot.

You should be able to use all factory parts for the second battery setup,so you don't have to modify anything.A wrecked diesel truck should have everything you need.

DO NOT mess with pulley sizes.Most alternators are driven at about a 3:1 ratio,so at 1000 engine RPM,the alternator is turning 3000.At 4000 RPM it's turning 12000.If you reduce the pulley size (to spin it faster) it will most likely overspeed the alternator.

The smaller alternator pulley will also slip when under heavy load,as you have less surface area for the belt to grab.

[wyldman]

Here is the Alterstart website.

Alterstart website (http://4alterstartcom.verizonsupersite.com/?lang=eng)

[HerkFE]

Thanks for the link Chris.

I understand what you are saying about pulley sizes. The school of thinking from which I was taught recommended a slightly smaller pulley. I'm not suggesting a drastic reduction. If you reduce the circumference slightly you will get a higher rpm without overspeed and with negligable surface area loss so slippage also shouldn't be an issue unless you are really stressing it out. . No?

I just like thinking of it in water/hydraulic terms. I'd rather have a larger pump (alt) then a larger accumulator (bat). I can see the demand getting too far ahead for the pump to keep up in high utilization cases.

Hope this helps him out. I know it helps me!

Thanks,

Pete :usa

[wyldman]

Pete - if you were running the engine at a constant speed,or within a tight RPM range,then you can play with pulley sizes to "gear" the alternator to the correct speed.

A factory alternator is already geared pretty well,and an increase in speed will not help output enough without overspeeding the alternator.

The water theory is a great way to describe it,but your theory in relation to plowing is backwards.You need a larger reservoir to keep up with the plow and accesories,as even a large alternator (pump) will not provide enough to power everything.Everytime you hit the plow button,the pump (alt) is overwhelmed,and it must draw from the reservoir.Once the resevoir is dry,the truck starts to die every time you hit the button.

Your theory would only work if you had a pump (alt) that would exceed the maximum draw on the entire system almost all the time.

[Snoworks]

I have a 130 amp alt. in my Jeeps, but I still experience power fade when plowing. Should I opt for a larger alt, or go with two batteries?

Chuck B.:rolleyes:

[wyldman]

I'd go with a second battery first.It will help.If it still starts losing power during a long plow event,then you may need to upgrade the alternator to something bigger.

[windmill]

Good thread as I was just working on my truck after having added a vbox sander. I'm currently running dual batteries but find that I can't start the sander most of the time. It seems to draw down the battery very quickly. I presently have an 85 amp alternator. I understand that drawing the power through 15+ feet of cable isn't helping a lot but don't feel like adding a battery at the back for the sander.

[HerkFE]

While you haven't totally convinced me, I can see the logic of your point and will probably add a second battery after my new larger alternator. The $$$ spent is less than the $$$ lost if things go south!

Thanks for the info Wyldman!! :zoom


Pete

[Alan]

Something that may help even a standard sytem and is required on the huskier alternators is a heavier cable between the alternator and battery. Alterstart recommends a #4 cable between alternator output terminal and the battery positive (+) terminal.

The truck carrying the alterstart unit has such a cable and the other S-10 is about to get one. Right now the output current is going through a #10 wire and a crimp connector on the battery cable, not an ideal passage for high amperage loads.

[wyldman]

Windmill - Your salter should not draw your battery down that much,especially with dual batteries.

You have another problem,like maybe a bad ground cable,or even bad batteries.With two batteries that little unit should crank over for an awful long time before it draws the batteries down

[GLS]

Thanks for the replies, it helps a lot.

I guess my first step is to find a drivers side battery tray. I went to the salvage yard today and they didn't have one. I'll have to do some more searching. If I get the dual batt setup working, I think I will eventually buy one of those 200a alternators. They seem nice.

I'll let you guys know what happens.

Thanks again

[Snoworks]

Thanks for the input gentlemen.

I will have to find an aftermarket kit for the second battery. I will also upgrade the alt. wire to a #4!

I run a front plow, a rear plow and rear back up lights, on both jeeps. By the end of an event the alt. takes longer to bring the amps back to 14. In the past, I have been replacing the batteries every two years, due to failure.

Chuck B.

[JohnnyU]

Ryan-

I priced the tray at my dealer, they wanted $96+tax. I had some 1"x1"'3/8" angle iron laying around, so I measured the battery, then measured a few more at Farm&Fleet to get a good average size. I made the tray, made up some bracing off the radiator support and drilled a hole in the 'dimple' on teh fenderwell, then bolted it in. I used a rubber bungee-like cord to hold the batter in the tray. It probably would have looked better to buy the factory tray, but this one works great, is very strong, and only would have cost about $20 for all the materials if you had to buy them. I'll take a picture this afternoon.

I also replaced my alternator this summer (the original one at that). I had a bad diode, causing it to only charge at 2/3 capacity, I just bought the OEM replacement with 105 amps, I got a great price from the parts guy, so I couldn't justify the added expense of the 200amp unit in the aftermarket.

Chris (Wyldman), would one of those leece-neville alternators work on a truck other than a Cummins?

[wyldman]

The Leece-Neville alternators are HUGE.IT may work,but don't expect it to be a bolt on.Here is a size comparison.

[wyldman]

From right to left,the Leece-Neville,an older Chevy alt,and a newer chevy alt.

[GLS]

I have another question:)

Should I use the same batteries that are listed for my truck, or can I use any battery I want?

The reason I ask is because the ones that are listed for my truck only have two terminal, and I would like 4. Also, will more CCA hurt anything?

THanks

[Plow Dak]

0ryan0
You don't have to use the same batteries.. Infact i'm sure most swap them out when necessary with higher CCA. and the biggest that will fit in the tray.
Some use deep cycle batteries.
4 terminal batteries are great. Lots of places to hook up stuff. Makes neat and tidy installs.
Swap away.

[wyldman]

A large group 78 battery will fit in the stock tray.A bigger battery like a Group 65,or Group 31 will give you mare reserve capacity,but will most likely need a few modifications to make it fit.

An Intertstate MTP-78DT makes a nice upgrade,and has dual posts as well.

[JCurtis]

I just installed a Optima Yellow Top Deep cycle battery in my truck, I would love to install a second battery but I didn't see a dual battery setup listed as an option in the 2000 GMC sales brouchure, so I don't know if its possible .

Haven't had any luck finding information or locating necessary parts.

I was considering buying a 200 amp alternator from Powermaster.

I will be installing a Whelen Lightbar on my truck as soon as I finish my damn leaves.

[mikegamb]

Wrangler north west power products makes duel battery trays for many makes and models 1 800 -962-2616 www.wranglernw.com

[windmill]

Well it wasn't the battery or the cable. The starter was replaced after a hand was burned on it after trying to get it to work. It was still hot an hour after it came off.:)
It works now! This is all in one bad day. I should now be OK for the rest of the winter, knock on wood. Ouch!:)

[Pickering Snow]

Reading this thread makes me think reading some post and all the lights guys run, its all about conserving juice my older trucks i have built my own alts and did my own up grades run duel batterys in them also , but the true trick to getting threw the night without dying is learning to run a plow honestly it is not ness to raise a plow completly up while in a lot or constantly angle left and right Case to be made my 91 ford 150 the driver would call me every shift and say the truck quit i would go jump him and he would tell me how crappy the truck was so i made a bet with him one night i switched trucks let him drive my 00 250 i drove the 91 he told me there was no way i would make it 30 min into my route with the f150 so i said fine will see when we met for breakfast the next day he was a little pail when i pulled in not only did i make it threw the night i even had enough juice to stay warm inside.

The problem he is one of my newer drivers good guy but has happy hands i told him if he learns to control and limit plow movement the truck will be fine , i took him out with me the next time showed him how to handle a juice sucking meyer pump and we have been fine since.

[wyldman]

How true Fred.I know some guys that can kill a good truck in a few hours.

Just lifting the plow an inch instead of all the way makes a huge difference.Plan your runs to prevent excessive blade angling,and try not to angle the blade with a load of snow on it.

Using the snow to help lift the blade when stacking at the end of a run makes a big difference too.Instead of crawling up to the curb with a load of snow,and having the plow struggle to lift it up and over,just lift the plow a few seconds earlier (just for a second) and the plow will ride up on the snow and over the curb.You may need to carry a little more speed to make it work.Then when your done,make a parallel run along the curb to clean up any leftover snow,and scrape the curb clean.

[Snoworks]

I just put my rear plow on my 2000 Jeep today. When I cycle the plow up and down, it only takes one or two cycles to drop the voltage under 10. Is this normal? I dont think so?

Maybe the ground is bad on the motor. I have the motor grounded with the truck frame. Their is no ground wire, the motor is bolted to a bracket and the bracket is welded to the frame. Maybee some rust is creating a bad connection.

If it is not the ground, this problem sounds more like a battery issue than a alt. issue. After reading all the other posts on this thread, it sounds like the battery may not be holding enough juice!

Also, does anyone no where I can just get a dual battery tray for my Jeep. Then I can do my own wiring!

Chuck B.

[BWhite]

How old is the battery ?

[mikegamb]

Snoworks

look 5 or 6 posts up.i gave the #of the company and the web address.there main thing is battery trays for jeeps

[GLS]

Finally got the new batteries installed. Thanks for all of the help.

I ended up ordering the tray from the dealer for $59. I put in two new 875cca group 78 batteries with dual terminals. Ran 2 ga. wire in parallel. I havn't had a chance to have everything running with the plow yet. I plan to buy a 200amp alternator soon.

Total cost for the dual battery upgrade was a $230 including 2 new batteries and tax.

[windmill]

Nice clean set up 0ryan0. Good thing the top posts aren't touching the hood. :D

[wyldman]

Nice job.I'd try it out before you upgrade the alternator.You may fine it works ok with just the extra battery now.

[BWhite]

Nice work . Wel you have taken any battery issues out of any future needs !

[GLS]

Thanks again for all of the help guys.

I went ahead and put in a new 200a alternator from alterstart.

It's a little bigger than the stock one. They said that it would fit right in, no bracket required, but I found that to be untrue. The holes didn't quite line up, so I had to widen one a little bit. Also, I decided to fab up a piece of angle for extra support (they said bracket was not required, but I didn't think it was secured very well). But, it's finally in. It really whines when the RPMs are above 3,000. Hopefully it will last a while and help out with the plow and all of the other stuff.

Here is a pic of the stock alt versus the new one.

[GLS]

One more pic of it in place. You can see the bracket I put in (to the left of the valve cover, two bolts showing).

[Pickering Snow]

Ryan

looks good but just wondered if you had a local parts store spin that for you to see what the output was i would be curious at best thats a cs 140amp caddie alt frame just would make sure the whine is normal and not a overloaded set of cs bearings

just looking out for ya friend i would also run a threw bolt at the bottom pivot it doesnt look like theres one there that would give a liltte more support againist your acsec stand.

[GLS]

Fred -

I'll have to check that out. The company I bought it from seems to have pretty good reviews. It at least has a 2 year warranty.

It does have a bolt through the bottom pivot. It goes through the back and there are threads on the other side, no nut on the outside. With my bracket, it is secured in 3 locations.

I also wanted to add the bracket so that I could use the old alternator if this one happen to fails. Just have to use some washers to fill the gap. I kept the old one just in case. Thanks for the concern :)

Here's the alternator I bought: click here (http://4alterstartcom.verizonsupersite.com/pages/store/skudetail.nhtml?profile=alternators&uid=10901&catuid=10155&returnURL=http://4alterstartcom.verizonsupersite.com/alternators)

Let me know if I am posting too many pics:)

[sonjaab]

Ryan.........You can NEVER post enough pics !

Keep them coming.......A couple of your rig in action would
be nice too !............geo:D

[wyldman]

Nice ! I hope the whining is supposed to be normal,and not a sign of an impending failure.Let us know how it works out after the next big storm.

[DaveO]

Good thread. You guys have all the right ideas. Dual batts VS HD Alternator is a tough debate.

Some facts for ya.

Wyldman is correct on the 2nd batt usually being the 1st uprade?? Why??

I have measured the current draw on a MM1 before. While liftin/angling it is 100amps + dependant upon load. When the blade tops out, or angles out, it OVER Ranged the 200 Amp scale I was on.

Soooo. JUST the plow exceeds 200amps occasionally during use. Add in your other electrics and you are closer to 300 amps max load for brief periods. This means basically NO alternator alone can keep up.

Having the STORAGE capacity of two batteries allows your truck to provide the current WHEN needed, and recharge while you are pushing/driving.

We sell HD alternators to our customers for certain applications. We ususally use products from Wrangler. The last install was an H2 with a 250amp alternator. It required an external regulator installed also. Good stuff, not cheap.

My diesel ram has a 150 amp alt I believe(wyldman,johnnyD correct me if wrong) and 2 batteries. I NEVER have a problem while plowing.

I recommend at least 125 amp+ alternator AND dual batteries for anybody using electric/hydraulics and added lighting.

Dave

[wyldman]

Originally posted by DaveO
Good thread. You guys have all the right ideas. Dual batts VS HD Alternator is a tough debate.

Some facts for ya.

Wyldman is correct on the 2nd batt usually being the 1st uprade?? Why??

I have measured the current draw on a MM1 before. While liftin/angling it is 100amps + dependant upon load. When the blade tops out, or angles out, it OVER Ranged the 200 Amp scale I was on.

Soooo. JUST the plow exceeds 200amps occasionally during use. Add in your other electrics and you are closer to 300 amps max load for brief periods. This means basically NO alternator alone can keep up.

Having the STORAGE capacity of two batteries allows your truck to provide the current WHEN needed, and recharge while you are pushing/driving.

We sell HD alternators to our customers for certain applications. We ususally use products from Wrangler. The last install was an H2 with a 250amp alternator. It required an external regulator installed also. Good stuff, not cheap.

My diesel ram has a 150 amp alt I believe(wyldman,johnnyD correct me if wrong) and 2 batteries. I NEVER have a problem while plowing.

I recommend at least 125 amp+ alternator AND dual batteries for anybody using electric/hydraulics and added lighting.

Dave

Stock Dodge alternator is 136 amp,and isn't a bad unit.When it goes,get something bigger and better (and cheaper too !) :D

Here is what I put on mine.It's a Leece-Neville that puts out over 200 amps all day long,without breaking a sweat.

[windmill]

Looks good Chris but I would check to see if it's still there it looked like it was in the process of teleporting somewhere.
I also like the thread, I think I've learned something again.

[DaveO]

Thanx Wyldman, I figured you would know the rating. I just remembered it being around 150 amps.

How much is the replacement you used???

Dave

[wyldman]

Brand spanking new Leece-Neville is about $130-140 US.It takes some modification,but it is pretty easy.

[DaveO]

Wyldman,

That is cheap. My last quote for 200 amp in an Avalon was $575 dlr cost. I'll have to get more info on them.

Dave

[wyldman]

Part number is 110-555.Do a web search,and you'll see them everywhere.

Most heavy truck dealers\shops carry them too,and some of them are open 24/7.

[CPSS]

Our Ford PSD's have dual alternators, I think they are 105 amps each, and dual 750 CCA batteries. We don't see the lights dim when using the plow motor ( Fisher MM ), so I think the best solution is dual batteries and a large ( or dual) alternators.

[WoofsPlow]

My MM1 is killing me! When raising/angeling with lights on the draw is so great the truck wants to stall! What is availiable for a 1995 Toyota pickup? The current alt is 60amp (please don't laugh). I know of an upgrade to a 100amp model taken from a Toyota Supra, but requires making brackets, ect. Can I get an OEM replacement in the 100-150 amp range. I will call the local alternator rebuild place to see what they can do. Thanks! :)

[aleksei]

I know it's only 90 amps, but there's a replacement stator available that will boost output. You basically use everything from your current alternator (assuming it's in good condition), but replacing the stator. There's a how-to available here (http://www.4x4wire.com/toyota/tech/alternator/). The article is meant with the intention of using the increased output for welding, but the alternator will, obviously, be good for other things also. I believe the company that makes the stator (MobiArc, or something like that) also sells rebuilds.

Hope it helps,
aleksei

[WoofsPlow]

Thanks for the info - it's just too much to do. I want plug & play

[WoofsPlow]

Just got off the phone with the alt. guy:headwall :argue He told me I can't go higher than 60amp, the system is designed for that only. If I had a Ford or Chevy I could go up to 130amp - nothing more! I mentioned running 2 batteries parrael and he said it won't work - the alternator can't run/charge one battery now how will it be able to handle two? What's the best solution to my problem? I asked him for his opinion on what would be the best solution "quit plowing" was his answer. I only really have a problem at night (lights on) when raising or angleling I have been working around the problem - goosing the stick in short bursts and running without headlights when I can. The truck plows great, just worries me and I probably look like an idiot without lights:shadess Before I could change out the alt and battery it was worse - My first stop before plowing a couple of weeks ago was to Walmart for a 300amp jump starter. Only needed it once, it worked! I would suggest it as std. equipment on all your vehicles. Best $25 I spent in a while. Thanks:D

P.S. I wanted the 500amp starter they had, I checked the battery test button - guess what it's dead. What do I do I bring it over to the battery section and start charging it up off a battery on the shelf. I start reading the directions- it takes 24-36 hours to charge this thing when dead! Don't have time for this so I got the 300amp and hit the road to plow:burnout

[JohnnyU]

Woofs-
You can surely run dual batteries. The reserve of the second battery, in conjunction with the primary, will help you out immensely. Who was this "alternator guy" Not a guy at a parts store, I hope....

[WoofsPlow]

No, he has an alternator rebuid shop - been around for years. He rebuilt an alternator for me a few years ago, does good work.

[FordPlow]

hey woof cant you get something out of a 4runner that might have more amps ?

for me (Ranger) stock alt is 95a (i think) but the explorer 95-97 had stock alt 130a when I upgrade thats what I will goto plug andplay as you say.

Dean

[WoofsPlow]

According to the "pro" the charging system will only work with a 60amp alternator, anything greater and I run the risk of damaging the "computer".