Total rip-off????

[topgunlandscaping]

I need to replace a bolt on western uni-mount and its rusted so i have to have it cut off with a torch, so i went to a local supplier here in detroit to get the bolt( where the a-frame is mounted to the plow) paid $7.00 for the bolt nut and 2 washers good deal. asked him how much to cut it off with a torch and put the new one one 10 min at max i think. he wanted $72.00 to cut off a bolt and but it back on, i can do my self but i have to wait till after 5pm to do it. correct me if im wrong but that is a rip-off in my eyes

[wyldman]

It's not a rip off at all.Sounds like he was charging one hour labour,which is about right.By the time you get it into the shop,get out the tools,get the old bolt out,fight to get everything lined up,get the new one in,etc,etc,it's an hour easy.

Plus he has to pay rent,heat,hydro,oxy\act,insurance,etc,etc.

What do you charge for an hour of snowplowing ??

[MDsnowPRO]

Well it seems a little high. Most welders will charge between $50.00 & $75.00 any hour. BUt then again its his shop time, time he could be making money doing other stuff (re-building pumps, installs) Stuff that makes him bigger money. If you got a call to plow a alot or drive that only was gonna take you 10-15 min how much would you charge. I know i have some long drive that take that long that bring in way over a hundred bucks. But i do agree it does seem a bit high but you godda look at it from his shoe. Do it yourself save the money.
-Nick

[Mick]

I wouldn't call it a total ripoff. Depends on if it's worth it to you. If not, then wait till 5:00 and do it yourself. Some people think my making $25 a driveway for 10 minutes work is a ripoff. Also my minimum charge of $35 for sanding. In that case, they can go out there and spend a couple hours (or more, usually) shoveling.

Everything depends on perspective.

[MDsnowPRO]

I wish i could edit my message!!!!!!!!!:rolleyes: :confused: But whatever. Just wanted to add this. I had to have a ball cut off a hitch i had. I called the guy.....he said come right over, ill do it now. Got there he cut it off in like three mins. Charged me $25. I thought it was fair. These guys may not have college degree but they have masterd a not-so-easy craft............and good welders are hard to come by. No completely on topic but i felt it fits;).
-Nick

[Adams Plowing]

one other thing to consider yes he maybe charging a higher rate thay you think is worth for the job but as with anything you put a torch near you run the risk of possibly damageing something else... that 75 is asmall price to pay if someting gets messed up and he has to replace more parts and or do more repair work because when the bolt was getting cut off something else got cut a bit too... becides as with what others said thats probaly his hourly rate during this time of season when he is busy... either way though i would just wait till 500 and fix it myself...

[Lawn Lad]

Since he's quoting a fixed price, he's going to make sure he covers his time. If things do go smoothly, then you're in and out in 10 minutes. Give 'em the full quoted price even if it took less time since you're paying for performance, not time. If the job goes awry, then it may take more than an hour (or replacement parts). If he was only charging you $30.00, then he's in trouble.

As well, Economics 101 says that the price is set at what the buyer is willing to pay and the seller is willing to provide service/product at. You may only want to pay $x, but if it's not worth it to the seller, there will be no mutual exchange of money for services. Bottom line - to this guy, it wasn't worth anything less than the quoted price. You can always find someone who is willing to work for less, but we've all seen what "cheap" will get you. The great thing is you get to balance cost and service and decide for yourself what you think a rip off is or isn't.

It's not like he had you over a barrel and took your wallet, you had a choice to make (have him do the work or not), so it's not a rip off. If he gave you a higher price after he did the work, and insisted on payment prior to releasing the plow, that would be a rip off.

[topgunlandscaping]

i agree with mdsnowpro. that is all i wanted was for him to cut it off. i slip the guy 20 or 30 bucks say thanks im on my way, im in there all the time buying parts and supplies, so he is getting my fair share of money. I guess i just thought he would help me out since i do spend so much money there, but like anything you cant get a deal for repeat business.

[Honest Mike]

I dont think its a ripoff. Thats the mans business and hes there to make a living. He did what you wanted him to do, and Im guessing it turned out good?? Nothing against you, but I hate when people come into my shop and tell me they need something worked on and go on to say that "they could do it themselves, but...". In my eyes if the person could do it themselves, they wouldnt be in my shop asking me to do it. I get people all the time coming in asking me how much for an oil change, I tell them how much and they think about it. They say "well I would do it myself, but I cant because of the weather, back hurts.." etc. etc. Just because it didnt take him long to do, means he has to do it cheap? You are paying not only for the service he performed, but his expertise in knowing how to perform it. Please dont take my reply the wrong way, Im trying not to make it sound rude, but it seems its coming out that way. Mike :)

[kawdude]

I have seen alot of shops that charge a half hour or one hour minimum charge for piddly jobs like that. I personally charge a buck a minute for jobs that take less than an hour with a $10 dollar minimum. And I work hard for your money. I see both sides of the fence on this one, as a consumer, and as someone trying to make it being self employed. Like wyldman said (in more words than I) Think of what the man pays in overhead. A good repeat customer, one that pays, picks up parts that they order, and is just generally nice to do business with, I would have probly helped him out free of charge.

[PROMOWER]

Wow, you really pissed me off with this thread!!!:mad: You have no concept of the Idea of business. That is why you have 2 13 year old trucks for your business. First of all, if you ever took the bolt AND bushing out of a western plow, lots of times they are mushroomed and you have to seperate the mold board from the A-frame to get the bushing out, unless you're real carefull with the torch.Then, most guys wait so long to replace it(as you did, according to tour thread about the slop in your plow) that when you put the new bushing in, you still have to weld up part of the hole either in the moldboard (quadrant) or the A-frame. Then you have the expense of the oxygen and actylene. Now you're pulling your truck in my shop, taking up one of my bays, tying up one of my techs, to do your job. I have gas, electric, telephone, water, insurance, taxes, PERSONAL PROPERTY TAX (on ALL my equipment and parts) income taxes, payroll taxes, workmans comp, building rent, just to name a few. Have 50-75,000 in parts sitting on shelf, getting no interest, waiting for you to buy,at an average markup of 17 to 25%:( . After all this, I still have interest to pay on all my unsold eqipment that is sitting on the floor. I pay interest all winter on mowers i won't even sell till spring. Enough on my soapbox. THIS IS NOT A PERSONAL ATTACK, JUST ME VENTING, AS YOU ARE NOT THE ONLY LANDSCAPE CONTRACTOR IN THIS BOAT. I WAS A CONTRACTOR FOR OVER 10 YEARS MYSELF BEFORE GETTING INTO EQUIPMENT, ANDTHIS WAS ONLY DUE TO THE FACT OF A MAJOR HIP INJURY WHICH PREVENTED ME FROM DOING THIS TYPE OF WORK!!! I see guys on a daily basis that have NO CREDIT AT ALL and need to buy a plow or lawn equipment, and did'nt know how to figure out what they really needed to make to replace their equipment when the time comes. Dealers are in the same boat.King Brothers(north of you) is now closing up shop. Thats like 7 dealers I KNOW OF in the metro area in the last year(one being Weingartz Hall road store) The $75.00 is really not that bad when you consider all the things I have listed in my post. It probably costs me $10.00 in heat loss when I let a truck in and out. So instead of ripping on your area dealers and buying off the internet and then coming to us when the internet part did'nt work right to fix it. support your area dealers. We live in your communities, are your neighbors, and some of you treat us like the black plauge. Then I have guys who have credit out on work that was done in 2002 that have not paid their bill yet. Oh yea, I did'nt even mention health insurance for the employees. Or income tax. GET MY POINT!!! I could go on here, and if you can't tell , this thread has hit a nerve, but I repeat:THIS IS NOT A PERSONAL ATTACK, SORRY IF IT CAME OFF AS SUCH, BUT TOO MANY LANDSCAPE CONTRACTORS HAVE THIS MENTALITY SINCE THEY WORK OUT OF THEIR HOUSE AND DON'T HAVE "REGULAR" BUSINESS EXPENSES, AND THEY FORGET ABOUT THIS ON THEIR BOTTOM LINE. Anyways ,sorry for the long post, but i had to vent a little:) :headwall

[Honest Mike]

PROMOWER, that was some post. We both are thinking alike, but you really went off in your post. :D You are right though. Mike :)

[BOUNDS-ELECTRIC]

I have to say I am the first to pay a welder what he wants! I can be out doing what I do best and make more to pay him! I think most of the time you get what you pay for! I have found more than once sometimes it better to leave it to the pro's!

[Big Nate's Plowing]

good luck getting it taken care of. as for "PROMOWER" chill the hell out, no need to start ranting at Richard.

I have done the same repair on 3 westerns and I can knock them out in 30-35 minutes, nothing like a IR 1" impact and 25 cfm @175 psi... it snaps them clean off, switch over to the air chisel and pop the rest out. it takes longer to get out the cutting head and heat them up to torch out. then take a 1¼" drill bit and a heavy hand drill, drill them out add the bushing and tack weld bushing to a-frame and quadrant, cut the a-frame loose with a sawzall, take and clean up edges with a right angle die grinder with a cookie, tig/mig weld the bushings in the a-frame and quad. insert 7/8" bolt torque to 150 ft lbs and your done

[paponte]

If you think it's such a total rip off, then why don't you just do it yourself. Everyone thinks the grass is greener on the other side. Maybe its a PITA to replace and the guy knows from experience. Everyone has overhead and knows what their time is worth. :cool:

[chtucker]

Originally posted by Big Nate's Plowing
good luck getting it taken care of. as for "PROMOWER" chill the hell out, no need to start ranting at Richard.

I have done the same repair on 3 westerns and I can knock them out in 30-35 minutes, nothing like a IR 1" impact and 25 cfm @175 psi... it snaps them clean off, switch over to the air chisel and pop the rest out. it takes longer to get out the cutting head and heat them up to torch out. then take a 1¼" drill bit and a heavy hand drill, drill them out add the bushing and tack weld bushing to a-frame and quadrant, cut the a-frame loose with a sawzall, take and clean up edges with a right angle die grinder with a cookie, tig/mig weld the bushings in the a-frame and quad. insert 7/8" bolt torque to 150 ft lbs and your done

Not picking on you Nate...

Do you have a commercial shop with commercial rent? Do you pay personal property taxes on your inventory? Do you have a multi bay shop that is heated...

You guys would freak at my rates for radio repair.... STARTING at $75 hour on up to $175hr for sno-cat and $200 for winter tower work. People are happy to pay it.

You get what you pay for. We talk about about paying shovelers 20hr+ for unskilled labor. How many of you are skilled with a torch and welder?

Howard

[Big Nate's Plowing]

Originally posted by chtucker
Not picking on you Nate...

Do you have a commercial shop with commercial rent? YES Do you pay personal property taxes on your inventory? NO Do you have a multi bay shop that is heated... SINGLE BAY

How many of you are skilled with a torch and welder?

Howard

as for skill? I can do more with a buzz box then most weldors at the hobart site can with a mig, as for cutting stuff with a torch, in the last 12 months (just got the statement today) I have used 115 large cylinders of oxygen and 500# of propane and my cuts look like plasma

if you got the skill to do it then do it, if not pay the man that does know and does it "REASONABLY!"

here is ¾" thick cold rolled steel

[chtucker]

Nate, I did not mean to infer that you were not skilled. I meant to say that I don't think you charge enough.

On this site we talk about lowballers not really figureing out the cost of doing business. A 35 minute repair, does not include talking to the customer, cleaning up after the repair, supplies and getting those supplies (ie going and exchanging tanks) invoice or receipt for the customer, cash handling, welding tips, wire, gas.

Those little things add up real fast.

People should pay YOU top dollar because you CAN get that job done that fast.

Heck I would have rather paid someone to replace the edge on my Blizzard today. I had the older style allen head bolts. Had to tack each bolt to edge to remove the nut. Had to grind off tacks to remove wing edges. Had to go to hardware store for nuts and bolts... Probably took me 2 hours (granted it was saturday and I was working lesiurely.) Probably would have take an hour and would be worth $75

Howard

[Pickering Snow]

Oh boy couldnt read with out backing up Wlyman, Promower
Honestly i have to say this 75bucks is more than fair to be honest if you figured my service call and my labor for that job it would be closer to 125.00 , I have a couple things hear to kinda say iam not picking on anyone Topgun i really am gonna give you some tough love advice i offered to help you a month ago iam concerned that so many things that are going wrong for you and your equipment are things that most guys on here and myself concider prevent maint the quad bolt should have been done in sept or oct when the weather was fair and no threat of snow plus you may have been able to do it yourself the problem you had last month was preventable has well nobody is trying to rip you off you are paying for services rendered it is tough in my buss to help out or give breaks to every cust if i was gonna do that i might has well sell the truck and turn the lock on the shop for good much like what promower is trying to say.

To add to the buss of repairing i myself have invested years of my live to reach my skill level i cant and wont sell myself out to keep a cust. In the auto repair buss right know things have gotten so bad with people 1 wanting to supply there own parts cause they can buy them cheaper well sure they can and the parts are cheap!!!!! 2 tell me after i tell them whats wrong with a cars computer system that it only took me example 15 min to figure out ok thats fair but your not paying for my time your ppaying for my knowlege i always tell a guy that says that to me how long would it have taken a sub par shop to figure out or how many parts would of been wasted guessing the problem , just one piece of equipment i carry a scannner for the computer systems cost me 8 grand and i still have to up date it every year
i hate to ramble but look when iam asked why my parts are more than what they say they can buy them for its simple i one warr my parts and my labor if my part fails its all figured into the cost of doing buss,, iam sure nobody takes there own steak to a steak house to have it cooked or does a person buy a loaf of bread at what it cost the store .

[John DiMartino]

Topgun,I feel the price quoted was fair all things considered. I do agree with wyldman here.Most people do not know the expenses of running a repair shop of any type.The costs of being legally in business is high and getting higher every day.
Althoug the repair may only take 15-20 minutes,IF everything goes right.it needs to be written up,and brought inside,im sure they will spend time with you and I know all told you will cut his daily schedule by at least 45 minutes to a hr byu the time you pull out after being finished.I find intterruptions while working the biggest reason for lost productivity doing a job. I dont mind stopping,but time is money.

[PROMOWER]

Rich, I apoligize to you and anybody who thinks i was too hard on you;BUT, like Fred I believe said, a little tough love. Know how many LCO's I've seen go out because they don't know to set aside money to replace equipment and such??You know how many guys that buy equipment at my shop end up having to have their WIVES who have a normal job and good credit buy it? Our shop charges $56.00 an hour, with a $35.00 Min. Now Nate is probably right, It would probably take 30-40 min. if everything went right. But not everything always goes right. In theory, your bill at my shop probably would of been $40-50.00. The biggest point I was trying to make(which I seemed to have failed) is when you go out and bid a lot to plow and you say $50.00, and the guy says, "Hey, I'll slip you a $20.00 , hows that?, What are you gonna tell him? See my point?:) Anyways, if anyone follows the posts here, Rich can tell you just the other day I tried to hook him up with a V-Box in trade for his one truck. I have helped out many guys that come in my shop with little things here and there, I'm not a bad guy. The utilities don't take favors in trade. If some of you guys want to barter for services, lots of communities have systems set up through their local Chamber that has that service.You guys can't keep beating up your trucks for free. Who's gonna pay that trans repair when it breaks. Look at Rich's situation with the Insurance company he plows. For Gods sake, they are an insurance company, they should know ALL about liability and lawsuits. I've been at the bad end of the equipment scale before, trying to give some of you guys the knowledge firsthand to help you so you don't have to go through the learning curve I did. When I was a contractor, the internet was an infant, local successful guys did'nt give out their secrets it took them years to find out. You can only nurse

sick equipment along for so long before it ends up costing you more money in the long run. It took me many years to learn what I know, and have been to many service schools.That kind of knowledge does'nt come free. So Rich,, don't sell yourself short, but don't do it to the next guy that needs to make a living. I know there are some bad dealers out there also, we are not an industry of angels. I have replaced more than one melted harness that was improperly installed by some Metro Detroit dealers, and unfortunately manufactures warranty does,nt cover harness that are melted by sitting on the oil cooler or radiator. I'll get off my soapbox again. All dealers are not fatcats sitting on the beach in Florida right now, were just an average joe trying to eek out a living!!!

[topgunlandscaping]

Im sorry to all that i flustered, i was just caught off guard when they quoted me that price. The reason i felt that way, is everytime i go to this place he is 20 to 25% higher then everyone else, i know he has every right to charge what ever he wants. So to all the fellow business owners im sorry for not looking at this in a clear headed view. They were doing a service and just like when i do a service, you pay for the service nothing is free. To john at promower, you have a location at 16 and gratiot? I need that number because thats where im going from now on. you have offered to help many times and you dont even know me persay. As for pickering thanks again for your offer. as for my equipment, I just bought this truck less then 4 weeks ago and yes its used but you have to start somewhere, sorry i just got into this business and dont have 50,000 laying around to buy a 2004 f-350 with a blizzard 810(I wish), so i have been doing the prevenitive maitiance as i learn what to look for, I just noticed that this bolt was loose, so that is why i address it asap.I want to last a long time in this business and i have to have the equipment to do it. so again im sorry, but as for this local supplier that thinks they know it all, he sold me the bolt 3/4" diameter 4" long... well that was wrong its only 2 1/2" long, thank god lowes was open late. so i have a right to be alittle upset with this guy now . I asked for a replacement, showed him what i needed and thats what he gave me, i called the night before and the guy in the shop said it was 1" diameter and 4" long and this is before this all started. makes me wonder if they know what they are doing?? i asked people on here like wyldman and bam gives out the answer with out even looking at. My point is make you wonder what they are doing over there, this is my venting about this situation. So again im sorry for upseting anyone and i know know you have to pay the price what ever it maybe if you cant do it your self

[windmill]

Wow this is some thread. I'm glad you stayed on topgun, I think some guys took the gloves off on this one, can't say that it was deserved or not. I guess your statement , "correct me if im wrong but that is a rip-off in my eyes" stung, you probably should have said that you felt it was high and asked what we thought. Hindsight is 20/20.
I had the same thing (sort of) the other day when I brought my vhf in to have a diode removed, the tech said, "all you have to do is take the front off and take the diode out with the soldering gun. " I can plow snow, and I can spray trees and lawns, I can probably solder but I would rather have him do it, he's the tech. His charge? $60.00.
Ends up his boss told him that what I wanted was illegal for them to do so I might have to do it myself anyway, but I'm not looking forward to it.

[chtucker]

windmill... it is probably illegal if you don't have a MARS/CAP license. I am assuming you want to have a diode removed to operate a HAM radio out of band???

I need a magnifying glass every time I do it.

Howard

[FordPlow]

my thoughts are if your billing more hours than you work in a day
then you are indeed ripping people off. Case in point my locking lug nut tool broke I stopped by the dealer he said $50 min to remove 2 lug nuts, I said how about just going by time cuz his $50 quote was if I had all four and as he expalined if they were stuck etc. I told him I just put them on ~2 weeks ago the first 2 came off no problem then the tool broke, nope $50 so I asked to buy the tool we cant them ...was the repsonse...I did my own research and got the tool for ~$10 and did it myself.

now say i had succumbed to his $50 and he completed the taskin under 5 mins like i did thats still 50 minutes he's getting paid for that he didnt work so if theoretically he could line up 8 of those jobs and get paid for 16 hours and work 8 to me thats a rip off.

I understand the costs involved with real estate and equipment etc and those need to be figured into per hour cost and I dont think$75/hour in a shop is unreasonable but if you charge me for an hour you should work for that hour

let me sum it up like this If I was working 40 hours a week for YOU
would you pay me for 80 hours of course not.

all that aside there may have been some miscommunication. if he just wants the bolt off then maybe 10-15 bucks if he wants the whole R&R then the original price is OK

FYI most any corner garage will cut that off for you for $10

Dean

[CPSS]

.if he just wants the bolt off then maybe 10-15 bucks

You've got to be kidding! I wouldnt do any job in my shop for anyone, even a good customer, for $10-$15. It's not worth the liability exposure. We have a minium shop rate of $35. That could be for 1 minute of work. That includes getting the vehicle inside, talking to the customer, setup of tools or equipment, cleanup, etc

[windmill]

FordPlow, I sort of agree with you but then in our business we charge a set price as well and sometimes that means we make a handsome sum per hour and the next time we may not do as well. Obviously we are hoping that there will be more handsome sums rather than the opposite. If I can line up 10 driveways in a row should I charge less than 10 somewhat reasonably spaced apart? If I charge $25 per driveway and can do 10 in an hour I'm making 250 if they are apart and I do 5 per hour I make 125. A person in the first 10 talks to one of the other ten to compare prices and sees they're the same, doesn't talk to me. If I charged 12.50 for the first ten do you know who will be calling me? Am I making sense? Just finished a few hours of plowing.

chtucker, you're right, I have an ICOM 2100 and want to be able to converse with my son at a frequence I can't transmit at so I need to make a slight mod. They gave me a site to go to which will explain how to do it, at no cost. ;)

[wyldman]

Originally posted by FordPlow
my thoughts are if your billing more hours than you work in a day
then you are indeed ripping people off. Case in point my locking lug nut tool broke I stopped by the dealer he said $50 min to remove 2 lug nuts, I said how about just going by time cuz his $50 quote was if I had all four and as he expalined if they were stuck etc. I told him I just put them on ~2 weeks ago the first 2 came off no problem then the tool broke, nope $50 so I asked to buy the tool we cant them ...was the repsonse...I did my own research and got the tool for ~$10 and did it myself.

now say i had succumbed to his $50 and he completed the taskin under 5 mins like i did thats still 50 minutes he's getting paid for that he didnt work so if theoretically he could line up 8 of those jobs and get paid for 16 hours and work 8 to me thats a rip off.

I understand the costs involved with real estate and equipment etc and those need to be figured into per hour cost and I dont think$75/hour in a shop is unreasonable but if you charge me for an hour you should work for that hour

let me sum it up like this If I was working 40 hours a week for YOU
would you pay me for 80 hours of course not.

all that aside there may have been some miscommunication. if he just wants the bolt off then maybe 10-15 bucks if he wants the whole R&R then the original price is OK

FYI most any corner garage will cut that off for you for $10

Dean

First off,it's not uncommon for a technician,or shop to bill more hours than they work.It's called flat rate.You get a flat rate to do the job.If you do it faster,you make more money.If it takes you longer,you lose money.

I don't see it as ripping people off,it's just working smarter.

We have to buy lots of expensive tools to do the job correctly,and efficiently.Do we ever charge you for the tools ? No,not outright,but part of that cost must be recovered in the time,and the rates that we charge.

It's kind of like snowplowing.Do you charge for the "exact" amount of time you have the blade down,or do you charge a set cost,or minimum charge ?

If you can buy the tool for $10.00,and do it yourself,then all the power too ya,just don't go crying back to the mechanic when you screw it up.

:headwall

[BWhite]

In all businesses its the little simple jobs that are very profitable most of the time . If we could have these kinds of jobs all day long we would all be fat and happy . Its just the way it is . In the machine shop business you can make 10 to 20 times your shop rate drilling a couple of holes in a very loosely tolerenced part even on a small sized lot .I was always much closer to the shop rate on the tough stuff. Again it just the way it is .

[szorno]

With welders, I have found an interesting thing. I have had 2 in the last 8 years. Each time, I went to them because of reputation for quality. I paid whatever they asked and wrote it off as a cost of doing business. Funny thing, about the 3rd time with each, I got a little discount off the regular rate. They said they wanted to help another small business. I got an hour and a half and a Coke for $80 last week. And all I had to do was lend a hand and crack a couple jokes. Good investment of a couple jokes. :D :cash

[FordPlow]

Guys...someof you may have guessed I dont owna business but i would like to someday.

I dont completely understand flat rate. What is the employees incentive to work faster than what the 'book' allocates for a job?

and what incentive is there for quality when working faster than the 'book'

I dont mean to get any one going I only offered my opinion froma consumer standpoint.

The driveway analogy I cant get into perspective because you priced the job at what you can do it for. certainly some will be more profitable than others.

the machine shop I can see you offer your bid on 200 machine pins that are loose tolerance its less taxing than a tightly toloeranced part and the pins may be done by a less experienced person = more profits Im still good here

but If I go to your shop and you tell me a job is 1.5 hours labor plus (parts*20%) but its really (1 hr lbr * 1.5) + (parts * 20%) = cost, then I do not understand why. after all you figured yuor shop rate at X to cover costs and now you tell me yes the rate is X * 1.5 for this job tho.

:argue I dont want to Im just trying to understand.

Dean

I get this part tho:cash

[HerkFE]

Flat rate and the employees incentive. There isn't any. It's not up to the employee. Now you as the owner who oversees the operation has great incentive to find qualified people who can do the task in under the flate rate time, thereby increasing your profits. If you have morons working for you and it takes them three times what the book says...well, you are gonna lose money. You work to achieve a balance between the amount of talent you can afford to employ and the amount of work coming in the door. A lot of small businesses start with morons as employees...you just need to know when it's time to upgrade! Sorry... :p

Also, quality doesn't neccessarily come from the amount of time one puts into something. Time is only one factor in the quality equation. For me, quality is a combination of experience, knowledge, time, and one often forgotten ingrediant, PRIDE. If you don't care about your results the rest don't matter one bit. I know guys with many years experience, tens of thousands of dollars of tools and training, turning out crap work. Why? No pride in their work. They just don't care. Punch the clock, collect a check. Sad. Look for craftsmen in their field, they are always busy, always expensive, and always in demand because they get the job done right. In the long run it's cheaper. Let something you jury rigged to save $50 break at 3 a.m. in a 18" storm and you'll quickly realize how little you saved!

And as many others have said, there is a minimum charge. If you don't have one you will soon find yourself nickel and dimed to death. Then you will undertand that one extremely well. I have a price for my aviation services that makes some people cringe. But I can charge that because of my training and experience. And I don't bargain on it for two important reasons. One, because I want to work only for people who have the best equipment and can afford to maintain it properly. And two, because if you do it once as a "favor" you might as well set that price as your going rate because everyone will find out about it. And believe me, you will waste the better part of that remaining 1/2 hour trying to explain why you are charging for an hour after only working 30 minutes or why so-and-so got a break ion the price. Bamm! There is your hour.... now you are losing money again!

FordPlow, your views will change when you own your own business. No doubt about it. Give it a try and best of luck!

[Mick]

On "flat rate", you're not paying for time - you're paying for results. The Book Rate is simply a guide to use to figure what a certain job should take an "average" experienced person. Now say the Book says "one hour". You get billed for one hour labor regardless of how long it takes. It'll take an inexperienced person longer - say an hour and a half - but you still get billed for one hour labor and the tech gets paid one hour. As he gets more experienced, he gets faster and makes more money per hour. Then one day he completes a "one hour" job in 45 minutes. He gets paid one hour wages for the job. The customer pays the same.

Whether you're the owner or a wage-earner, the motivation to do a good job is still there. Neither want complaints over quality. The owner wants repeat business and good reputation. The employees wants to keep the job.

[Mick]

Originally posted by HerkFE
And as many others have said, there is a minimum charge. If you don't have one you will soon find yourself nickel and dimed to death. Then you will undertand that one extremely well. I have a price for my aviation services that makes some people cringe. But I can charge that because of my training and experience. And I don't bargain on it for two important reasons. One, because I want to work only for people who have the best equipment and can afford to maintain it properly. And two, because if you do it once as a "favor" you might as well set that price as your going rate because everyone will find out about it. And believe me, you will waste the better part of that remaining 1/2 hour trying to explain why you are charging for an hour after only working 30 minutes or why so-and-so got a break ion the price. Bamm! There is your hour.... now you are losing money again!

I agree COMPLETELY. That's why I have a minimum charge for everything. For plowing I often tell people "Well, that really won't take much - just a minimum plow". Cuts out the bickering and comparing to someone else, etc. Same for sanding - I always say "It's a minimum of $x.xx which will cover 1/2 yard of sand". Don't run into much around here that takes anywhere near that. Then I don't have to bicker and pick about did I use 1/4 of a yard or 1/3 yard etc. If they want plowing AND sanding; still no breaks even though I'm using the same truck for both. Add both minimums together. They know it going in.

[BWhite]

The problem with Flat Rate is the short cuts taken (I am talking auto dealer service departments) i.e. Many techs will make the decision that you dont need all the fasteners reinstalled ( They deem the fastener not critical) . A lot of techs will take a chance believing the customer wont notice the poor workmanship . And if they do they will fix the problem . Rather than do the work correctly to a high level of workmanship they would rather play the odds .
Thank You

[Honest Mike]

I agree completely with HerkFE, Mick, Wyldman, and BWhite. Pay the guy and forget about it. He didnt overcharge you. ;) Mike :)

[PSDF350]

Originally posted by CPSS
.

You've got to be kidding! I wouldnt do any job in my shop for anyone, even a good customer, for $10-$15. It's not worth the liability exposure. We have a minium shop rate of $35. That could be for 1 minute of work. That includes getting the vehicle inside, talking to the customer, setup of tools or equipment, cleanup, etc
old thread i know. but i thought this comment needed feedback. i was haveing some problms with the shifting in a tranny i had to replace (83 k10 did it myself) so i bring it into the tranny shop to have fixed drop it off in the morning. get a call back couple hours later its ready. so i go down expecting to pay about 150-200 bucks. imaging my surprise when he says 15 dollars:eek: couldn't believe it just for the record it was fixed to, absolutly no problms after. linkage cable just wasn't adjusted right:headwall

[BRL]

But the point is, for the little bit of work you were having done, you were fully prepared & expecting to pay 150.00 or so. So while in this particular case, you got a nice big break, we would not bad mouth that place for charging an expected minimum charge.

[PSDF350]

no of course not it's just cpss said he would never take anything into his garage for that cheap and i was just showing that not everyone is that greedy. but i can honestly say i had to pick my jaw up off the floor:D it should also be known i have no problm paying a pro to do something i cant or would rather not do.

[FordPlow]

maybe its a regional thing PSDF350 lives one town north of mine, a relatively rural area where goodwill can go a long way.

Not to long ago I got a flat on my car I changed the tire out and brought the flat to the local tire guy. He fixed it and balanced and gave it back gratis said just remember when you buy your next set of tires, now I didnt expect him to do it for free and because I get decent prices this is where I usualy go (though not enough to be recognised by the guy), so when I bought new BFGs (with the white letters tommy:D ) @ $122 a corner I went right back to the same guy. now had he charged me $35 you can bet I would gone somewhere else.

The price should fit the job and complexity IMO

Perhaps in a more densely populated area businesses can charge more for the same work but where I live the goodwill a business generates is an important aspect too.

Dean

[PSDF350]

where you live Fordplow?

[Lawngodfather]

One of the reasons I spent $5-6000 on my own welding//cutting equipment, I don't have the time to have the repairs outsourced.

I hear it every day from my GF why did you spend $2000 on a mig welder when wer could of remodled a bathroom.........

It gets fixed right then and there....That's why I bought it. Or before it breaks.

I don't have time to drag it off somewhere to get it fixed.

$75 for doing that, no prob, car dealer wanted to charge me $99 to look at something I already knew what needed to be replaced, I told him forget it. I'll do it myself. While it was on the rack, they called and told me it will cost $42 to fix it, I said go ahead, but I wasn't going to pay them $99 to look at something then charge me $42 to fix it. They wonder why i only come there for my free oil changes. Once they started that crap, I no longer gave them my service......

Thanks all you a-holes who get mech to look at something so you can find out whats wrong then do it yourself or take it somewhere else that is cheaper to save $10.

I cone from the old school, look at it, tell me how much, FIX IT.

$49-$99 non refundable diagnostic fee.

However they still did a 40 point look over on the truck and found a buch of things wrong with it, and I did fix them myself cause it totaled close to $5,000, BUT if they wouldn't be charging a non refundable diagnostic fee that you don't even get credited to the repair, I would give them my business.

Guys like the one who started the thread are why we pay this.

[wyldman]

With most of our good customers,we just roll the appropriate diagnostic time\fees into the repair cost.It will be waived if it's an easy diagnosis,or the diagnosis time overlaps the repair time specified.

As for someone who walks in off the street,I gotta make sure they are well aware they are going to pay the diagnostic time.Otherwise,you spend all that time dealing with the customer,doing the diagnosis,pricing parts,doing the quote,and they walk out the door to do it themselves,or get it done somewhere else.Now I'm out my time,and haven't made a dime.

It's also very common to have several hundred dollars in diagnosis time for a $2.00 part.If I didn't spend the time,you wouldn't know what it was,and you could be throwing parts at it,spending more overall and still not fixing the problem.

Last week I billed $320.00 diagnosis to isolate an intermittant faulty $8.00 door switch.The customer refused to pay the diagnosis,saying it's outrageous for an $8.00 part.I told him that's what it took to find the problem.He then stated the dealer had checked it out previously,and didn't charge him a cent for the diagnosis.I asked him what they did,and he said they just quoted him for a new GEM module (basically a new body computer),which was several hundred dollars more than the total of my repairs.They didn't even look at the car,they just guessed,and quoted him an expensive part.He had declined the repair,as he felt it was too expensive.Good thing he did,as he would be out the money,and the car wouldn't be fixed.After a lengthy conversation explaining the diagnosis we had done,he finally agreed to pay the bill,and left reasonably happy,as he now understood why it took so long to find.

Moral of the story is,paying someone (who knows what they are doing),to do a correct diagnosis will usually pay off in most cases.Also,if you try and beat the guy down on the diagnosis right off the bat,he's not going to spend the time to dig deeper and find the problem,as he knows he won't be compensated properly for the time spent.He'll start guessing,and throwing parts at it.Finding someone you trust,and can develop a good relationship with is very important.

[wyldman]

The other thing that baffles me is how customers think the price is negotiable.They always want a discount,or make an offer that is far less than the price quoted.

I usually ask them,when you go to work,does your boss come by and ask you if you can work today for $10/hr less ? Or maybe to give him a discount,and take $100.00 off your pay this week ? Usually that shuts them up,and makes them think about it.If you don't want to pay the price,don't bring it to me in the first place. :headwall

[Honest Mike]

Chris, I couldnt have said it or typed it better myself. You are so right. No one wants to pay what the job is worth. Everyone wants a discount, its so funny to me. You work your butt off, your getting cuts and bruises on your hands, you never get to relax, you never get to eat lunch in peace, no one compliments your work or tells you what a good job you did when it turns out right the first time, all they know is price, price, price. We do alot of that free crap at my place. I mean like put a car on the lift, for someone you never saw before, and check it out and find whats wrong, call for the prices on the parts, make up an estimate and all, just to have them tell you oh ok, Ill bring it back another day when I save up the money. They always give you some reason why they cant have it fixed. They always say they will come back though when they can afford to get it done. You think we ever see the people again?? Nope. Its all a waste of time. We do free estimates though in hopes of getting the job. I told my brother, we gotta stop this free estimate crap. I told him we should at the very least charge a minimum fee for putting the car up on the lift and checking it over for something, and if we get the job, we will subtract it from the bill. If they dont get it fixed by us, atleast we made something off them and it wasnt a complete waste of time. We are just goodhearted people I guess, because everytime someone comes for an estimate, we never charge them LOL! We cant get ourselves to charge them just for LOOKING even though we should and we know we should. Its time, and time costs money. Very good posts though Chris. :) Mike :)

[wyldman]

Thanks Mike :D

I will do the odd quick check of something,or a freebie checkover if I feel it's worth it.The little things I don't really sweat.Like taking a quick peek at something when it's already on the hoist.It's the bigger stuff,when you spend the time,and the brainpower to solve a problem,and they want it for free.

Pulling codes,and accessing on board computers is another thing we charge good money for.Even if it takes me 5 mins to check codes,they still pay the $70 for the electronic engine control test.I have probably $8000.00 invested in my scanner alone,and countless hours every year in electronics training,I HAVE to recoup those costs,can't be giving that stuff away.I have no problem charging for my expertise either.It cost me big $$$ in both expense and time to get it,I'm not giving it away for free.

Sorry to rant,this stuff just rubs me the wrong way when people complain about what we charge.Good discussion though,let's keep it going. :D

[Honest Mike]

Nah, your not ranting. I know where you are coming from and what you mean. We think alike because we are in the same business and put up with the same crap. I take it to heart though. I get offended when someone tells me the price is too expensive, or that they know somewhere else that will do it cheaper, then go there, what are you doing here then bothering me?? LOL! Everyone is looking for the cheapest price possible, thats what bothers me. Doesnt quality mean anything anymore?? Shopping by price, in this line of work, isnt too smart. If you get a cheap price, expect to get a cheap job, thats all Im saying. Mike

[campi]

I would like to put my 2cents in here I agree with mike & chris I have been working on my cars and trucks since i was 15 yrs old this does not make me a mechanic by no means !! but you guys are right i try to do most of my own work on my truck but its old school no electronics pretty easy most of the time!1 Cant say enough to you guys on this site about ansering my questions when i cant figure some thing out! i know your knowledge is worth $$$$ Chris has helped me out many times with his ansers and he has been always right!! you guys dont have to do this but you help many people on this site some people dont understand how much you have to spend on eqip. plus keep up with the times and keep learing all the time!! So your time and knowledge is worth the $$$$$ !! Thanks again Campi !!!!!

[Mick]

Although I do have some mechanical background, I do very little of my own mechanical work. I have found over and over that taking the stuff to properly trained and fully equiped mechanic will save me money every time. I've quit going to the "local guy" who has a shop and some tools. While I'd really like to patronize him, he is more into "replacing parts until he gets it right". A good example was just this week. The transfer from the rear to front tank quit working. The "guess" was a transfer pump and the part would cost around $150 plus labor. Took it to the dealer. Wound up that it was a corroded wire. Labor - two hours (included partial draining of the tank); $130, part $6. I figure I just saved at least $150 because he would have fixed the wire in the process of replacing the pump.

Regarding charge for the lift - I was charged a "lift charge" of $5 and that was 30 years ago. It was really unnecessary as the problem was the alternator; but the "rule" was if the car goes in his shop, the lift charge applies. I think he saw me coming, he also got a tool box with $2000 of tools for an alternator but there wasn't much I could do as I was stranded in the middle of Louisiana.

However, the question of the employer asking the employee to work for less does happen. All the time, lately. Givebacks, salary and benefit reductions, loss of pensions and renegotiated union contracts. Layoffs and rehiring for less. We may not agree with it and I certainly don't, but negotiating is becoming the norm.

[Pickering Snow]

Originally posted by wyldman
Thanks Mike :D

I will do the odd quick check of something,or a freebie checkover if I feel it's worth it.The little things I don't really sweat.Like taking a quick peek at something when it's already on the hoist.It's the bigger stuff,when you spend the time,and the brainpower to solve a problem,and they want it for free.

Pulling codes,and accessing on board computers is another thing we charge good money for.Even if it takes me 5 mins to check codes,they still pay the $70 for the electronic engine control test.I have probably $8000.00 invested in my scanner alone,and countless hours every year in electronics training,I HAVE to recoup those costs,can't be giving that stuff away.I have no problem charging for my expertise either.It cost me big $$$ in both expense and time to get it,I'm not giving it away for free.

Sorry to rant,this stuff just rubs me the wrong way when people complain about what we charge.Good discussion though,let's keep it going. :D



Chris couldnt of said it better somtimes its hard to figure why we stay in the auto repair buss i guess i do it because i know can fix it and someone else cant we have given so much of our lives to the service buss we dont even know ourselfs

I have often rehersed my retirement letter would have to go like the

Dear cust i quit after years of listening to your problems i am gonna deal with mine like the kids i raised that dont even know me i often belived the ups man was there daddy , i too am gonna take week long vactions iam gonna enjoy dinner out without you coming to my table asking me why your check engine light is coming on iam gonna enjoy saturday mornings watching you get your auto zone diag screwing i think too i will enjoy sleeping threw they night not needing to make service calls in the middle of the night cause you were to cheap to replace a rad hose i will enjoy sunday mornings reading the paper and not having you knock on my door with your sad story thats more important than yes even my one day of rest amen

[Lawngodfather]

Originally posted by wyldman
With most of our good customers,we just roll the appropriate diagnostic time\fees into the repair cost.It will be waived if it's an easy diagnosis,or the diagnosis time overlaps the repair time specified. I paid a $54 + freon diagnosis fee already to get a/c fixed. It was on the rack for an oil change also, already knew the bushing on the trans shifter was gone, they charged me a hefty fee to slap one in and I didn't complain.

This is what gets me, you take the truck in for an oil change, they will come back and tell you this this that n this is bad or needs to be replaced, which is great for upselling, but if you bring it in and want something looked at, you pay a diagnostic fee.

$99 to look at the shifter bushing that's waisted......naw I don't think so. I spent 20 minutes aruging with him, I am not paying $99 to look at something I already know is gone, give me the quote to replace it.....After I got done arguing with them they still called and gave me priced for all that was in need of repair. They only got the grommet and the oil change.

I couldn't drop $4-5k on the truck, So I did it myself.

Lower ball joints, both tie rod ends, trans fluid/filter, front and rear diff fluid, A/C all but compressor bad. What they didn't catch was leaking radiator and trans cooler lines.

I spent $565 in parts everything fixed but A/C.

Now if they would of went about it different, they prob would of gotten most of that work.

Yes I can understand a diagnostic fee, but they have gone overboard with it.

Friggin dealers...........Oh and they hand you a coupon for 20% off any work, then the fine print, no wear or normal maint items. so I ask what will this get 20 % off of?

[windmill]

Good posts, gentlemen. I just had a few beers and was just about to go to the boys room, but those posts brought tears to my eyes and now I don't have to go anymore. J/K (about the tears)
I agree with having to pay for services too, but like Mike 97 SS I usually give way to much away as well and then the same customer comes to expect the extras. I think it is a tough line to toe, charge or free.
I trully appreciate my mechanic and have had the same one for 10+ years. Sometimes I think he's charging too much, but then I don't know his costs. Most of the time the job is done well, but there are those times when they aren't. Oh well, we aren't perfect.

[wyldman]

Originally posted by Lawngodfather
I paid a $54 + freon diagnosis fee already to get a/c fixed. It was on the rack for an oil change also, already knew the bushing on the trans shifter was gone, they charged me a hefty fee to slap one in and I didn't complain.

This is what gets me, you take the truck in for an oil change, they will come back and tell you this this that n this is bad or needs to be replaced, which is great for upselling, but if you bring it in and want something looked at, you pay a diagnostic fee.

$99 to look at the shifter bushing that's waisted......naw I don't think so. I spent 20 minutes aruging with him, I am not paying $99 to look at something I already know is gone, give me the quote to replace it.....After I got done arguing with them they still called and gave me priced for all that was in need of repair. They only got the grommet and the oil change.

I couldn't drop $4-5k on the truck, So I did it myself.

Lower ball joints, both tie rod ends, trans fluid/filter, front and rear diff fluid, A/C all but compressor bad. What they didn't catch was leaking radiator and trans cooler lines.

I spent $565 in parts everything fixed but A/C.

Now if they would of went about it different, they prob would of gotten most of that work.

Yes I can understand a diagnostic fee, but they have gone overboard with it.

Friggin dealers...........Oh and they hand you a coupon for 20% off any work, then the fine print, no wear or normal maint items. so I ask what will this get 20 % off of?

I understand where your coming from Mike,that does seem a bit excessive.it's not right to charge for the diagnosis if you don't do it.The dealers tend to do this a lot more.The mechanics love it as they get paid to diagnose something that's obviously wrong.I wouldn't go that far.If it's obvious what is wrong,just give them a quote,and do the job.

[phoenix827]

I have 2 people that I will deal with.
One guy, I asked him if he could bust loose an axle nut for me so I could change a broken cv joint. I could handle it all, but my impact couldn't loosen this one nut. Happened to catch him on a slow day so he put it on the lift, handed my the impact gun and said have fun! I did the whole thing there with some help from him and his son. No charge.
2nd guy has been my wife familys mech for years.
Brought my s10 up for help tracking down everything it needed. Diagnosis? 4 ball joints, 2 tie rod ends, an idler arm, a broken torsion bar crossmember bushing, a DESTROYED steering collumn and a chewed ass for puttng a body lift in! lol
No charge, $500-600 est, without the collumn.
BUT! He said he just wanted that POS out of his garage, didn't want to write up a slip for it because he didn't want it on paper that it was so fubar!
BOTH times I was VERY clear that I was planning on doing as much as I could myself. BOTH times I offered to pay. Both are people that I have helped in other ways.
1st one was my Chief @ the firehouse and I help around the shop whenever I can.
2nd one I used to wash the windows of the garage for him.
Both are VERY good guys that I will go out of my way to help if they need anything.

Lincoln Auto
Gary's hill top Getty
Both in torrington ct.

[FordPlow]

Originally posted by PSDF350
where you live Fordplow?

royalston we cruise thru richmond all the time on the bikes and sleds depending on the season:p

Ok so I think that from reading the replies we all "generally" agree chris et all I can see your points and have no problems with them,,,

LGF tho you say one thing then say the complete opposite a couple replies later and infer that people who dont share your viewpoints are somehow beneath you ie .

from your response (in quotes)


"$75 for doing that, no prob, car dealer wanted to charge me $99 to look at something I already knew what needed to be replaced, I told him forget it. I'll do it myself. While it was on the rack, they called and told me it will cost $42 to fix it, I said go ahead, but I wasn't going to pay them $99 to look at something then charge me $42 to fix it. They wonder why i only come there for my free oil changes. Once they started that crap, I no longer gave them my service...... "

"Thanks all you a-holes who get mech to look at something so you can find out whats wrong then do it yourself or take it somewhere else that is cheaper to save $10. "

"I cone from the old school, look at it, tell me how much, FIX IT. "





but if your from the old school you'd be out the 5k not doing it yourself for ~$500 (from your next reply)


then you call TG out with this


"Guys like the one who started the thread are why we pay this."


but thats not true he paid just thought it was to high and stated his reasons why which all seem valid depending on the scope of the work (which we dont know) ie the complete R&R ok ~$75, but cut a bolt ~$75 noway

but this is exactly what you did ????? got the info then did it yourself. I dont think anyone in here is advocating that approach least of all me. if I need professional assistance I seek it and realize the costs involved, but (heres where I agree with you)
when a pro tries to take advantage of you ie $100 to dump the codes aka diagnostic fee, I will politely decline and goto autozone and have the same information given to me for free.
Iwill then proceed to repair the problem. if the the above scenario was its $25 to dump the codes OK thats reasonable you need to pay your equip etc but $100 cmon...



bottom line of this ramble we all agree no-one likes to be taken advantage of

we can agree pros need to cover reasonable costs

no-one wants to see the pro they contracted with drive by them in their benz on the way to lakehouse to cruise for honeys whilst the work they paid top dollar for just left them stranded by the roadside.

:p

Dean

[Lawngodfather]

Oh no, I have no problem paying to fix something, but when the dealer is going to charge me to look at something then charge me again to fix it, they lost my business, then if you bring it in for an oil change, they will find what they can find that needs repair for free.


I bring truck, tell me how much to fix, fix it. Once they started this oh you have a problem, we'll look at it for $49-$99 then you don't get credited the diagnostic fee.......Forget it.

I can understand if it takes 3 hours to find something wrong or what needs fixing, and charge for that time, but you brings something in guy looks at you like your the plegue cause you know whats wrong, give them the part number, and ask them to put it in, then he sits and argues with you that they have to charge me a $99 diagnostic fee to look at what is wrong then it will cost so much extra to fix it, NOooooo I don't think so.

I refuse to go to the dealer for repairs once they started this ritual. But hey, I messed up, I gave them yet another chance.

Keep in mind truck is on the rack already.....

I have no problem paying for service when they cooperate and want to work with you, but to blatenly charge fees, for rediculas stuff naw....I will find someone who I can apritiate and give them my stuff for service.

Oh I found someone Monday...I keep forgetting about him and he is around the corner from my shop and not 1/2 hour away. I forgot he works on small trucks too.

I was running a bunch of stuff together, prob didnt make sence.....

[Lawngodfather]

Originally posted by FordPlow
but this is exactly what you did ????? got the info then did it yourself. Trust me I didn't want to know all that other crap was wrong, I wanted the A/C fixed, but to do that I had to pay a diagnostic fee plus freon, no problem, not what would fall under a normal evaluation.

While I was there also getting an oil change put the trans shifter grommet in. Gave the part number to make it easier.

They come back and tell me all this other stuff is bad, plus the repair bill for the A/C (Which I paid them to look at so no loss to them) No I am not dropping that kind of money on a truck I just sank $8500 in last summer, the truck is not worth it....

Now the only thing wrong with the truck is the A/C don't work.

They did the look over on their own, a way to make up sales for them, I did not ask for that. But if I did ask them they would of charged me $49-$99 for each item.

[windmill]

Then again maybe the diagnostic isn't worth it.
My employee has a Dodge Caravan, he went to a National Co. (that has its own money), they did the diagnostic thing and told him he needed a new fuel pump. He had them do the work, and they also changed the filter. Three months later the same starved for gas problem, he took it to them again and they again said, fuel pump and filter. Not a problem, still under warranty. Few weeks later same problem. They had it in the shop all day and when the went to pick it up they shrugged their shoulders and said they didn't know WHAT the problem was. So much for computer diagnostics. He now has a van that he can't drive. Oh well they were graciuos enough to tell him that the last diagnostic test was free.

[Pickering Snow]

Reading this thread has got me baffled by how much people really do misunderstand there autos .

First off auto zone is a internal joke in the auto repair buss a parts store selling parts and a low grade scanner what a mix

If you get a free diag check from a parts store understand this just because for example a o2 sensor code doesnt mean the o2 itself is bad theres way more to diag than that what if your driving a 96 chevy truck with a 350 vin r with most vechs know sporting 4to 5 o2 sensors do you think that 7.00 hr parts guy knows which one is which or if that o2 code is even a o2 i really doubt it , When i scan a vech i dont look at a code and replace that part i diag why good example po171 lean exhaust code what part are you gonna replace????? just curious profess techs understand this but yet were over ruled and undermined by parts counter people sad day.

And to close you will never see me in a benz heading for my lakehouse to busy fixing free diag problems.

[Honest Mike]

Lean exhaust code? Hmm, Id be looking under the hood for a vacuum leak. The last Lincoln Mark8 I had in with the SES light on had 2 codes. Right bank lean and left bank lean. I figured air was getting in somewhere. Ended up being the big rubber boot that goes to the motor, someone left it off, just sitting on top of the motor. Rather easy fix. Loosened clamp, pushed it on, lined it up, tightened clamp and cleared codes. Still good till this day. Sorry for going off topic. Fred, that was a good example. Mike :)

[PSDF350]

first before i get you guys upset. let me say this doesn't include you. most garages are thiefs if you dont find a good one you are going to be payup payup payup payup that is the reason so many have a problm with machanics. but the same can be said for any proffession. if we dont know what your talking about its hard to say anything.

[sonjaab]

Henry.....hey that fuel starvation problem may be a rotted
gas line. Prob. hidden in the frame rail.
I have had a few problems like that with some of my winter rats
here in salt and snow land.

To test..Get a air hose and a blower nozzle. Wrap a rag on the end..stick it in the filler neck...apply air...look for puddles or wet
spots on frame rails. ........geo


BTW: Any simple repairs on my vehicles off warranty is the small
indy shop up the street. They don't charge you to "look".
Labor rate $45 hr. Chevy dealer $70 Caddy dealer $80

[JCurtis]

You as a business man, that plows snow must have a working knowledge of what it costs you to put your truck on the road and run it for a day plowing snow. Break this down and you Must have a fair idea what your minimum charge is lets say for plowing a driveway.

What makes you any different from the welder?


You have expenses, so does he ! You have a minimum charge , so does he !!

If you think you are being ripped off go somewhere else the next time ! The time spent theorizing about being ripped off could be better spent doing something profitable.

I can weld two pieces of metal together, can I do it as fast and as good as someone who does it everyday for a living HELL NO !!!

Many years ago, I had a boss that thought he could plow snow ... he kept bitching that he could do a better job than I could and faster too ! so one day I said heres the F***ing Truck, do it yourself... After watching him for 20 minutes try to figure out which way to point the truck and the plow and grind gears while operating the plow and in general just making a damn mess without accomplishing anything constructive I stopped him and took the truck back. In 5 minutes I cleaned up what it took him 20 to mess up.

He never bothered me again!

Get the idea!

[CT18fireman]

I love how people complain about te prices of services, in the case a welder.

If you got a call tomorrow from someone saying they had found a cheaper plow guy or landscaper you would be on here calling the new guy a scrub and lowballer and the customer a cheapskate. Everyone looks for the best eal, teh best price for the best job. Everyone has expenses. I cannot plow a driveway for $15 but there are people who live 10 in a studio apartment, have sub par insurance and no other expenses that can. Get used to it.

If you want a quality job then you have to pay. You have to pay for the guys skill and knowledge to be able to do the job in 10 minutes. There is a lot of school, training and experience in that ability and that all costs money.

I will gladly pay someone for something that I am not comfortable doing or do not have the time for. After all I depend on that same thinking to make me money.

[Crimedog]

I kinda see where LawnGodFather is coming from on this, at least this is how I took it. Another example is when I bought a used set of rims and tires, they needed to be balanced so I took them to the tire shop that also does a lot of other drivetrain repairs now. Told them I wanted to get them balanced, no problem, then I go to pick them up they say I need a new air filter. The best part is it says right on the filter box "DO NOT REPLACE (or something like that) K&N filters" I was nice and just said no its a K&N. Then I was at a Dodge dealer having them do a tranny service and adjust the bands, the guy asks me if everything else is OK, and asked me if I want the 20 point inspection (sumthin' like that" for 10 bucks I said sure. He then asked me how long its been since I've replaced the spark plugs:headwall My dad and I just looked at him, then he goes "OH! that's right it's a Cummins" Yeah buddy it is...

Bottom line is:
You get what you pay for!

If its too expensive do it yourself!

Everybody has to make a living!

On a side note, I've got to say that since we started the lawn care and plowing biz my outlook has taken a 180* turn. I used to be a pricer, looking for the lowballers, but now we are in the same boat and push quality work for our pricing so it has really helped me understand how real business works. I do 99% of our maintenence, and if it has to go somewhere else because I don't have the tools or time or am not comfortable with it, the guy that owns the shop has to put food on the table for his kids, too. Thats just my little enlightened happy outlook on life now:o

[Mick]

This thread is kind of taking a turn from snowplowing so I'm going to give the scenario I've been wanting to put out here for a few days and see what happens. This is for real:

We hire a lady to clean our house. She comes in once a week for 3-4 hours and does general cleaning and vacuums the floor. She has been with us for ten years and six in this house at $45. Initially, we discussed her doing more for the $45, but it wound up being less than we had thought. My wife and I decided we'd pay the $45, anyway, rather than renegotiate. We knew it was high for this area, but decided she was worth it. Two weeks ago, she informed us that she was going to $65 from $45 which is a 45% increase. We got a referal for another lady who has very good references. She quoted us $35 for the same duties. We did not discuss what we had been paying the first person, so it wasn't a case of lowballing. One of the reasons for needing that much of an increase was that her husband is self-employed as a home remodeler and cannot afford insurance (health or business liability). (I know, that's not a valid reason for HER asking for a raise, but there it was.)

Who thinks we're wrong for going with the lower price?

[Honest Mike]

You wouldnt be wrong at all in my eyes Mick. Its not your problem her husband needs more money and it needs to come from somewhere. Plus you said that 45 was already somewhat high, but she was worth it, then she wants to jump to 65?? Thats a huge jump. I could see if she said 50, which would be a $5 jump. Not trying to miss the point of your story at all, just saying how much I can definitely see why you would go with the $35 person. I am sure you would feel kind of bad to let her go after so many years of service, plus knowing that her husband needs the money, but she shouldnt have to make it up on you because he needs extra money. He should be making it up somewhere on his end, that is if her story even is true. Mike

[Mick]

Mike, that's what we said - we'd have gladly gave a $5 increase. But that was just too much. Yes, we felt bad letting her go after ten years. I thought, too, that the husband is probably like so many around here - good craftsmen, but poor businessmen. Most haven't heard of a Business Plan and have no idea of how to go about figuring costs etc to include insurance. Mostly they just say "I don't need that crap to ... (whatever their craft is).

[FordPlow]

hi Fred


No doubt theres alot more to the codes than just seeing PO411
which translates into secondary air injection low flow which after vacuum lines check air pump hose check air pump check turned out to be an underhood fuse for the airpump, but for the same po411 = $100 at the dealer that PO411 = $0 at AZ and your right the kid said I have no idea what that means, a little effort on my part resulted in $1.69 for a new 30a strip fuse = problem solved.

sometimes a little information is actually useful, sometimes like you alluded to its only more confusing.

Dean







Originally posted by Pickering Snow
Reading this thread has got me baffled by how much people really do misunderstand there autos .

First off auto zone is a internal joke in the auto repair buss a parts store selling parts and a low grade scanner what a mix

If you get a free diag check from a parts store understand this just because for example a o2 sensor code doesnt mean the o2 itself is bad theres way more to diag than that what if your driving a 96 chevy truck with a 350 vin r with most vechs know sporting 4to 5 o2 sensors do you think that 7.00 hr parts guy knows which one is which or if that o2 code is even a o2 i really doubt it , When i scan a vech i dont look at a code and replace that part i diag why good example po171 lean exhaust code what part are you gonna replace????? just curious profess techs understand this but yet were over ruled and undermined by parts counter people sad day.

And to close you will never see me in a benz heading for my lakehouse to busy fixing free diag problems. :p :p

[Pickering Snow]

Dean you didnt say what vech you had the air pump code on if the fuse blows again make sure you check air intake routing to air pump inlet has it is probley allowing water into the pump blowing the fuse Freds advice 0 $

take care

[FordPlow]

Fred thanks for the advice, the vehicle is a VW and the fuse actually corroded not blew. the design is such that the fuse is shrouded but not really protected very well considering new england winters and after 6 yrs and ~85k miles the fuse corroded
and the AP didnt turn on but the CEL did :mad:

its been a bit more than 20k miles since that has been replaced with no CEL (oh why did I type that I can see it now CEL on the way home):p

Dean