Pole building or stick built?

[SCB]

I've got a beautiful spot for a 30' x 40' pole-barn behind my house. It's next to woods with a creek running through them. Unfortunately, the site has a problem. Seems years ago this area used to be low and wet so the farmer who owned it told the road commission they could dump the old road-bed from a nearby project to fill it (prior to DNR tight regulations, etc). This was 40 + years ago. Someone then spread dirt over is and planted grass. Looks real nice but would look so much better with a new shop there.

Here's the problem: In most areas I can dig down a few inches before I hit huge chunks of concrete at different angles, etc. I would like to built a pole-barn style structure because $$$$ and ease of adding on, but without being able to sink the posts below the frost line, I think I'm stuck with stick-built. I'm wondering if anyone has heard of a good way around this.

Question 1) Is there a way to use pole-style structure on-grade? I can't imagine so since the structure gets it's rigigdity from set poles, but I know
some of you guys have much more experience in this area than I.

Question 2) If I do end up building on a slab, How much fill do I need? I'm afraid I would need to raise it high enough to get in frost walls. My township won't let me build on a flared footing, so I'm thinking 3-4' of fill and excavating the whole area would probably double my budget and put the project out of reach. I''m imagining the road bed being 6-10" thick concrete, so probably not feasible for digging footings. I'm also concerned about my base settling below the pour. Is this likely? I'm mainly thinking about voids between the old fill, etc. How much fill should I use to raise it, etc. Soil here is fairly light and well-drained (except for the vehicle-sized chunks of well-cured concrete mixed in).

I'm sure I should probably find a different area for the shop, but this really is the best area on my 1-acre piece so I'm trying to make it work. Let me know what y'all think.

[cat320]

I think this discution came up before but around here at least in my town no more slabs you need a a foundation below the frost line.

But I think to dig down to set your post for a pole building will be alot of work. if you can do slab then I would just build some kind of retaining wall and build up with structural fill every 4-6 " and compact it then use a 3/4"- road base to do finish grade in preperation of the slab. Don;t forget your electric water waste connections. under floor heat and vapor barrior.

[atgreene]

On my pole building, several posts are setting directly on ledge 6" or so from the surface. The others are all 2-4' deep depending upon the ledge depth.

As for a slab, some towns that restrict slabs will allow them if you insulate under them with 2" of styrofoam, here in Sebago, they have no rules preventing a slab. When I do them around here we do a 8-12" haunch on the edges with rebar. I would recommend then doing 2 rows of block to get your sills off the floor and allow for welding/cutting etc...

As for a frostwall, that is ideal, but if you can't dig it up or fill it up and you're looking at the $$$, poles may work. If you can get some of them below frost, and the others are on something that doen't move with the frost, brace the poles with 45's and pour your crete around them you may be ok.

[apgarconstruction]

I wouldn't Build it on a slab unless you have footings around the perimeter that are a min 3-4 feet deep. how much dirt is over top of the concrete/road fill?

the pole barn is definitely the cheaper way to go, but in the end, the stick built on a nice block wall with slab floor is the nicest. either way you have to deal with the fill that is under the ground. Anything built on a slab around here all has block foundations sitting on a footing 3' below the grade.

[Fastjohnny]

[QUOTE=SCB;177741] This was 40 + years ago. Someone then spread dirt over is and planted grass. Looks real nice but would look so much better with a new shop there. You really need to push the topsoil and grass off no matter what you do. Once you do this you can further evaluate what is underneath.
Question 1) Is there a way to use pole-style structure on-grade? What will prevent each pole from heaving at a potentially different rate?

I would try a few test holes with a back hoe to determine feasiblity of setting poles below frostline.

[Mdwstsnow512]

he is correct you really need to scrape the the grass and topsoil off the surface before any building.

the cheapest option would be to get an auger and try your best to get the holes in, putting in a footing and a wall, 42" minimum, is going to be pricy.
if you are going to do this your best bet would be to dig it out and pour a footing and a wall much like you would a house, without diggin out the middle, thus saving on fill. undisturbed ground is the best subbase.

later
Nate

[King of Diamonds]

Hi

Any thought to having a well driller come in and drill for the poles? I would think you could probably get them to drill during there slow season and get the rest of the site work done in the mean time,

Just a suggestion?

[GMC Driver]

Another thought is anyone who augers hydro poles - I used an electrician with an auger truck. While they aren't cheap, they easily go through the frost, and can offer large diameter holes (mine were 42"). We had all 25+ holes done in a morning - quicker than fighting with an auger on a skidsteer.

[snocrete]

If you cant build on a slab, then either posts or footings would be the only options......maybe you can rent a mini x with auger and breaker, keep your fingers crossed, miss alot of the chunks when you drill holes and if you run into some concrete chunks.... youll have the breaker sitting there ready to crumble it up so you can finish out a hole.....???????




Welcome to LTS Nate..........where at in Il are you located?

[SCB]

Lots of good advice here and I'm gonna have to do some light "investigative destruction" in the spring to peel back the top soil and see how bad it really is. Still would like to go the pole-parn route of possible for $ and ease of adding on, etc. but won't be able to make that decision till spring.

Thanks to all and continue with the good advice on this.

Steve

[snocrete]

something else to consider......if your concerned about the chunks.....you may not want to disturb the ground peeling away at it(like mentioned before undisturbed ground is best).........only go say, 2 ft deep in the ground with your postholes and use sonotube to bring the concrete the other 1.5 ft up out of the ground, then grade/fill to the top of your posthole, where you could mount brackets for posts to sit in........ this would allow really good runoff away from your structure all the way around and may keep you up just enough to stay away from the chunks??????

Just another suggestion......but if I were gonna "test the ground for chunks", I would use a really small handheld posthole digger, find where I will put posts, and go down however deep needed, only disturbing the bare minimum.........then you would know whats there?????

[SCB]

something else to consider......if your concerned about the chunks.....you may not want to disturb the ground peeling away at it(like mentioned before undisturbed ground is best).........only go say, 2 ft deep in the ground with your postholes and use sonotube to bring the concrete the other 1.5 ft up out of the ground, then grade/fill to the top of your posthole, where you could mount brackets for posts to sit in........ this would allow really good runoff away from your structure all the way around and may keep you up just enough to stay away from the chunks??????

Just another suggestion......but if I were gonna "test the ground for chunks", I would use a really small handheld posthole digger, find where I will put posts, and go down however deep needed, only disturbing the bare minimum.........then you would know whats there?????

Your posts just got me thinking (ow that hurts). Instead of just digging random holes with my hand-powered post hole digger, why not use a prod like the septic sucker folks use to find tank covers. If I recall, it's just a straight piece of about 3/8" metal with a fabbed handle. I could use it to go down a foot or so without too much problem. If I do it in the spring when the ground's still soft, I should be able to tell pretty well where the voids are and then hit those spots with the post-hole digger to find out what's really there.

BTW, can one of you Moderators please hit the >>FF>> button to about spring, 2008? I'm ready to be done with winter...

[ratlover]

You can buy probes cheap enough and they are VERY handy if you do any digging. If its frozen you will need one of the probes with a slide hammer type deal. Either way you can go down a few feet real easy. But you hit a small rock and you are moving over a little to make sure its a small rock and not a huge one.

Actually since I like toys and tools I vote for a vac excavator and suck a bunch of holes :D Depending your local economy they may be cheap to get ahold of now since there may be a few in the area that are shut down.

You can get small tamps for tamping small deep holes and get it compacted. I wouldnt so much wory about that type of disturbing. Or fill the holes that you dig and appear ok with sand so you can go find em all and dig em out easy later if you decide to set poles :D I wouldnt dig "random holes" I'd dig were I planned on setting poles. If you dig a few and they are OK then you can skip spotting them all. JMO

[snocrete]

[QUOTE=SCB;189381] Instead of just digging random holes with my hand-powered post hole digger,


If you go back and read my post......I suggested digging holes where the posts are going.......not just "randomly go around the yard and start punching holes".......you'll have to dig there anyway?(where posts go) a probe would work I guess, I was suggesting this to determine if a breaker would be needed.........but I went back and reread your original post, it stated that in most places you only need to go down a few inches before hitting concrete!?!??!?!!?:eek: = SS or Mini X/Breaker/Auger :D So it seems theres no point in testing for chunks, and after 40+ years I highly doubt you need to worry about settling issues, but I have not been there, so I can only assume so much???.....as long as your hole's are nice and firm at the bottom, thats what is supporting the structure anyway..............its to bad you cant get away with building on a floating slab..........I have done buildings (stick build) of that size on slabs, and when done right are perfectly fine.......but that option dosent work for all applications and parts of the country.........hope this info helps