Pole Barns/Garages

[denangme]

Bought my current house in July. It has a 40X40 pole barn type constructed garage. With the temperatures falling, I'm getting a lot of condensation inside. Now, I heard that applying the spray foam type insulation is the best way to rid that problem. My question is this: Can the ridge vent and eave ventilation get insulated also? I don't really want to install a ceiling (close up the trusses), and I will be installing a hot air furnace shortly. Without sealing the vents, all my heat will be wasted. I always thought (although I'm not a carpenter), a house/attic roof needs the ventilation so it can breathe only because of the plywood/shingled roof so it doesn't rot,is this correct? If that's the case, should I be ok sealing up all the vents since it has a metal roof? If stale air is the only concern, I can't see that as a problem since the two garage doors will be used daily. Lets' hear some opinions....

[atgreene]

The spray foam can be applied directly to the metal, even the roof, with no venting needed. I've been looking at doing something similar on mine just for the roof. A little $$$$, but no hassles with vents so it may save in labor. The problem is the metal has to be a minimum of 70 degree's to apply foam, so your stuck with it till summer.

[apgarconstruction]

spray foam is definitely a great way to tighten things up and keep out moisture.
i know down here, spray foam is like 3 times the cost of regular batt insulation. I would get some quotes. maybe it's cheaper in hazelton than where i am in NJ, but it's not far from me. a buddy of mine used that foil faced rolls of thinner insulation. i'm not sure how good it's worked out for him but he said it came in rolls that fit right between the posts and 2x4 horizontals of the pole barn. he also used it on the roof. i think it got stapled to the 2x4s and then tight to each 6x6 post. i didn't believe when I saw it, that it would work, so maybe look into that and find out if it does a good job. i would upgrade to spray foam for my house, but not for a garage unless you get a really good deal. the last job i was on, where they did spray foam, batt was quoted as 2500 this is for a 1100 ft addition, two stories, and 3 inches of spray foam was close to 8000.
maybe you can do like an inch and a half of spray foam and it won't be bad. it's R-7 per inch. normal 2x4 walls have r-13 batt in them, r-19 for 2x6 stick builts

[denangme]

Dapgar, yeah.....I heard it was expensive. I figured I'd start with the roof, then do a little at a time. R-7 per 1 inch thick, so if I did 2", it would have an R value of 14......I assume that's the way it's calculated, on an inch of thickness. I have a couple of web-sites bookmarked that sell do-it yourself kits that come complete with sprayer-hoses and extra nozzles. This way I could do say, one wall at a time as the funds allow. As far as waiting for the warmer temps, I thought about that also. I was thinking about cranking the heat up while spraying this, but I decided against it. With the cost of this stuff, I wouldn't want to re-do any surface it didn't adhere to because of cold spots. I'll just shoot for applying it in the summer.

[EIB]

denangme,

Take a look at this site. http://www.fomofoam.com/
They sell kits for foam. This is what I'm looking into to do my place. There are other places that sell them too. Do a seach on Google for spray foam kits.

[atgreene]

Here is a link for Farm tek, they have the aluminum bubble wrap. It is stapled up, fairly inexpensive and seems to work well. I may use it on my barn for the rafters. http://www.farmtek.com/farm/supplies/cat1a;ft1_tekfoil_reflective_foil_insulation.html

[rgrimes945]

We used this material on a 40 x 60 garage (pole barn) with metal roofing and have no seepage from the ceiling at all and it stays at least 50 in the garage all the time. This by far is the cheapest way out of your situation. I would highly recommend it. We used it in the floor under the tubing for the radiant heat too.

Ray Grimes

[wyldman]

Way back,our shop was a big pole barn.When we moved in,it had a ceiling built under the roof trusses,with fiberglass batts on top.The walls had fiberglass batts with clear poly holding them up.It was better than nothing,but still cold,and very drafty.The minute you turned off the heat,you could feel the temps drop.

We had a company come in,and spray the entire buidling with spray foam.They did 3 inches up under the roof,and 2 inches on the walls.It was a whole different building after that.The furnace didn't run as much,it warmed up much quicker when you first turned on the heat,and it would retain heat when the furnace was off.Best thig we ever did for the shop.

It was a little more expensive.It was around $6000 to do 3300 sq\ft (back in 1990),but I'm sure it is more expensive now.

You gotta look at all the benefits to warrant the extra price though.No building walls or ceilings to support the insulation.It's FAST.The whole shop was done in about 4 hours.Less disruption to the shop.All we did was move everything about 6 feet from the walls,and cover everything with plastic drops sheets.It is totally sealed.We had a few small leaks from the tin roof,and plastic skylights.Because we had lots of good lighting,he just sprayed right over the skylights and sealed them up.The building as so well sealed,we had to put two vent fans in to remove the hot air in the summer.

We had ours sprayed in November,so it wasn't real warm out,and it came out fine.


The foam board is another easy solution,as it can be directly attached without walls,but it's harder to make it airtight.

[denangme]

This house and Garage sat empty for 2 years before we bought it. Since it's in the country, I had my fair share of critters (mice and chipmonks) to "evict" from the garage. When we bought it, the garage had a dirt floor with uneven ground, so plenty of places to get in if you were a mouse or chipmonk. I have since brought in and leveled a base and have one 16X24 slab 6 inches thick of concrete poured. I'll continue that in the spring. Anyway...the critters is the reason I was leaning towards the spray foam. The house had a make shift enclosed (which I removed) rear deck, and the walls were insulated. I found a couple of dead mice (from me putting out poison), nested in the fiberglass insulation, with what looked like a lot of other empty nesting areas. That's probably the next biggest reason, apart from the condensation, that I want to go with the spray foam. The garage doors will be going up and down daily, so I'm bound to have one here or there get in. I just don't want them getting too comfortable!

[rgrimes945]

We had the field mice thing to ,but a couple of kitty cats seemed to eliminate there desire to live in our spaces. Not seen any in a couple of years..

Ray Grimes

[wyldman]

This house and Garage sat empty for 2 years before we bought it. Since it's in the country, I had my fair share of critters (mice and chipmonks) to "evict" from the garage. When we bought it, the garage had a dirt floor with uneven ground, so plenty of places to get in if you were a mouse or chipmonk. I have since brought in and leveled a base and have one 16X24 slab 6 inches thick of concrete poured. I'll continue that in the spring. Anyway...the critters is the reason I was leaning towards the spray foam. The house had a make shift enclosed (which I removed) rear deck, and the walls were insulated. I found a couple of dead mice (from me putting out poison), nested in the fiberglass insulation, with what looked like a lot of other empty nesting areas. That's probably the next biggest reason, apart from the condensation, that I want to go with the spray foam. The garage doors will be going up and down daily, so I'm bound to have one here or there get in. I just don't want them getting too comfortable!

We had critter problems too.The foam guy said while it would seal up all the holes where they were getting in,some would scratch through the foam eventually.

What he did was put down mesh (similar to tile mesh),at the floor level,and sprayed right over it.

[denangme]

Ray, I was thinking about a cat or 2, but then I remembered that my German wire-haired pointer absolutely hates cats! I'm afraid I'd be burying more dead cats than mice/chipmonks! Chris, that sounds like a good idea, I'll have to remember the mesh thing when I start. I'm not too concerned about the price, I'll just do it sections at a time, just like the concrete. My biggest concern was if I could seal the eave and ridge vents without it causing any wood rot/damage or the inside of the steel panels rusting due to lack of ventilation. I guess if rust was an issue, it would be from the condensation I get now, right?? :beatsme

[wyldman]

Rust shouldn't be an issue,as it will be all sealed off anyways.You should not get anymore condensation once it's insulated.

I would at least get the roof sealed off for now,that's probably where most of your heat is going to get out.

Ask for a price to do it in pieces,and a price for the whole job.It may be cheaper to do it in one shot,as they only have to make one trip,setup and cleanup only once,etc.

[lorentzlawnsnow]

we had our 40x80x16 done for $8000 with the foam stuff, highly recommended.

[IHI]

Price out open cell and closed cell foam, look at cost/r value, etc...open cell is much like the syrofoam used for coffee cups and mimics the expanda foam you see from a can with the blobby llok to it. R value for open cell is R-3 per inch, but is about half price of the closed cell. The close cell foam is like the extruded polystyrene your used to seeing used around foundations, under heated slabs, etc...closed cell is about double the cost of open cell, but it is also an R7 per inch so double th cost and couble the performance..not to mention the closed cell is a more uniform application when it's finished.

I've read/seen some energy star homes they're using the foam on, and they are literally spraying the under side of the roof deck in sitck built homes-preventing any air flow since they seal off the top late to roof deck with foam, and foam the roof deck. This foam creates such a good insualtion factor the unconditioned air in the attic never gets a chance to heat up the underside of the roof deck and cause the shingles to cook from the underside out...which we all see as shinlges peeling/curling. At first I thought they were nuts but as they explained it, it became a DUH factor since it's harder for the attic to get hot like a common attic does with just batts laying on the ceiling. The entire attic stays much cooler since the heat cannot radiate through the roof deck, and they get better R factors because of it as well as longer roof life.

Just remember, yes it's expensive, but if it's a space you'll be occuping for a long time, it will pay for itself over time since your not only getting the same or better insulating values-your also air tight; so the benefits are 2 fold. 2x4 walls are now able to be insulated to the same r factor as 2x6 walls. from a cost standpoint it's alomst a wash since the savings on building materials arae offset with higher insulating costs, but you can also gain a little bit of floor space using smaller lumber....it's all in what you want and how much you want to spend.:D

[apgarconstruction]

definitely get it done in one shot if you can afford it. i know they'll charge you more to keep coming out. the setup and cleanup of the equipment is part of their fees, most guys bring in a closed in trailer and a big pull behind generator to run the spray equipment. it doesn't take them long to spray it, you are paying for the material mostly, as oil goes up, so does the spray foam costs.

[denangme]

IHI.....thanks for that in-depth explaination on the venting needs for home roofs. I thought it was the rotting of the plywood under the shingles, but when you mentioned the shingles curling from the heat, that made a lot of scence. So since I have a metal roof, this is what I'm going to go with. dapgar.....I found one guy in the area that sprays this stuff. He won't do it unless he also sees a load of drywall sitting there to put up after he's done. Something about fire codes, and that with any type of insulation you need a barrier and he doesn't want to be held liable. I asked if he could at least come and give me an estimate, but he said it's a waste of time since it fluctuates with the oil prices. I want to keep all the truss area open (no ceiling), and there's no way I'm going to fasten drywall to the underside of the roof. So I guess the drywall and the cost of someone doing it is why I decided to give the do-it yourself kits a try. This way I can do it as funds allow and nobody busts my you know whats about putting the drywall up.

[IHI]

Bill, the drywall thing is honestly a must do-esspecailly in your garage evironment. This foam is highly flammable and toxic when it does start to burn, so putting up the drywall is literally protecting your investment. Yeah it sucks since you have two things on your plate you must address at the same time, but it's better than something happening and buring down everything you have out there. So if nothing else make sure you have enough drywall or steel to cover the foam you spray on, even if it's only sections at a time like your talking about, honestly the best and safest practice.

As far as him not wanting to price it until your ready, I deal with this alot as do most other contractors. Every november-january I get customers wanting estimates on new roofs for spring and every year I tell them I will put a estimate together at the end of march/first part of april since annual increases in materials always go into effect and like he mentioned oil prices bear alot of weight for material prices. No homeowner ever likes getting a bid for X amount, for which they budget for, and then a few months later at go time, I/we have to tell them-sorry, but due to material price increases it's going to be XX more than what I told you....that is why I just dont give prices until it's close to a time we can start since I dont want to lose money naturally, and homeowners will always go with another person once the first guy changes his price after an inital estimate since they think the contractor is trying to screw them....yes that does happen, but for the honest guys it's setting yourself up for disaster.

[wyldman]

Bill, the drywall thing is honestly a must do-esspecailly in your garage evironment. This foam is highly flammable and toxic when it does start to burn, so putting up the drywall is literally protecting your investment. Yeah it sucks since you have two things on your plate you must address at the same time, but it's better than something happening and buring down everything you have out there. So if nothing else make sure you have enough drywall or steel to cover the foam you spray on, even if it's only sections at a time like your talking about, honestly the best and safest practice.

As far as him not wanting to price it until your ready, I deal with this alot as do most other contractors. Every november-january I get customers wanting estimates on new roofs for spring and every year I tell them I will put a estimate together at the end of march/first part of april since annual increases in materials always go into effect and like he mentioned oil prices bear alot of weight for material prices. No homeowner ever likes getting a bid for X amount, for which they budget for, and then a few months later at go time, I/we have to tell them-sorry, but due to material price increases it's going to be XX more than what I told you....that is why I just dont give prices until it's close to a time we can start since I dont want to lose money naturally, and homeowners will always go with another person once the first guy changes his price after an inital estimate since they think the contractor is trying to screw them....yes that does happen, but for the honest guys it's setting yourself up for disaster.

When we had ours done,we were advised of the toxic fumes IF it burns,but nothing about it being very flammable.I would assume anything is flammable,but i wouldn't consider it highly flammable.It got hit with lots of torch slag and spray,weld spatter and sparks,and never a fire.We did not have a drywall ceiling,as I wanted the storage space above,and we had a bobcat catch fire.it blackened the foam,but it did not ignite or melt.This was a yellow foam,very similar to the expanding foam in spray cans,but very smooth once dry.Maybe the blue stuff is different ?

We also never had a problem when the fire department did their annual inspections either.They never even mentioned it.

For safety sake,it would be good to have the drywall just in case.

[IHI]

It's hard to say, might just be one of those manufacturer warnings that are passed onto the guys installing it for liability purposes just in case. I know quitae a few guys that have pole buildings that have the open cell foam sprayed, "drooled" down the walls and like you they do alot of fabrication for race cars and other things so sparks and molten metal are flying, I've seen some tell tale pock marks/melted holes, but nothing to say it would "burst into flames"...but these were also done many years ago too, so maybe the new formula is a bit different than older?? I wish I knew more exact details about the stuff, other than it's light years above fiberglass as far as insulating/sealing capabilites.

I know price means nothing on the internet since we're from all over and different markets, but we did a room addition last year and to have closed cell sprayed 3" in our 2x6 walls and the entire underside of the cathedralled ceiling it came out to $1.19/sqft, and that was with the insualtion guys taping everything off prior to spraying, cutting the foam flush with the stud faces, and cleaning up. Kinda spendy when coompared to batt, but soo much better-getting what you paid for....you just gotta be sure you have everything run through the walls, cuz once it's sprayed and sets up- you aint fishin no wires LOL!!

[wyldman]

You bring up a good point on the wires.

I wonder if you could use one of those channel tools like they use for insulated concrete forums,or closed cell foams,and run the wires in the channel ? You would still have to bore through the studs though.I wonder is thats legal (code) or not.

[IHI]

I dont honestly know the answer to that, the newness of the spray in foam as far as becoming main stream in my area has just started catching on in the past 4-5 years, and with the common customer "I dont want to pay alot for this muffler" attitude there are only a select few that truely understand that often paying more gets you a better product, so rarely is this system used except in high end homes....regular spec house customers look at the cost differences for items like this and say, hmm I could upgrade to tile in the bathroom instead of linolieum for the difference...let's just use batt.

Point being, with the rarety thus far locally, I have not heard of much rerto fitting going on as far as a finished structure adding a circuit for this or that, much like you'd expect in a remodel, so code wise I'd be curious as well as to what they'd let fly. Either way, unless consumers do the cosmetic repairs themselves, adding a circuit will be costly due to amount of demo that would be required to run a new circuit. Not real sure the inspectors would just allow a guy to slice out sections of sheetrock, mortise out a channel and lay in the wire, then patch sheetrock back over it....too much liabilty in that someday somebody might hang a picture and drive a nail/screw into the wire....I could see allowing conduit, but holy cow would the cost start adding up in a hurry and scare folks away.:scramble

[atgreene]

The spray foam is flamable. Most of it has been treated with fire retardent, but honestly, it won't stop it if it reaches ignition temp.

As far as code, look into The Station Nightclub in Rhode Island. They had open cell foam rubber for sound deadening with no protective covering. Once ignited, the fumes are deadly, the same as spray foam. The amount of hydrocarbons released when burning or heated is astounding. Best to cover it, but to satisfy curiosity, burn a small piece of rigid foam board and watch what happens.

[cat320]

We did a school in charlestown,ma with the sound deadning material on the top floor with the pitched roof areas .We had to get fire rated stuff that meet the local specs . we saw that same stuff that the was in the nightclub it would of worked better for us to install but didn't meet code.

I'm sorry but the person to blame for that would be the person that let them install it and the one who inspected it. Also i would like to add doing pyroteckincs in a small confined area is as assine as you can get regaurdless if the material was or wasn't fire proof.

[IHI]

I'm sorry but the person to blame for that would be the person that let them install it and the one who inspected it. Also i would like to add doing pyroteckincs in a small confined area is as assine as you can get regaurdless if the material was or wasn't fire proof.

I'm sure all of us the trades know there are far more things getting done, weather it's done right/wrong, safely or dangeriously that permits are never pulled for thus no inspection is required since it's under the table. Even my town who hired guys to drive around town checking addresses where they see company trucks sitting has stuff fall through the cracks, and proper installations are rarely the case since the jobs are often lower than low ball prices and there is no way a job can be completed correctly for prices offered...and accidents like that are the result sadly. I know for a fact the watering hole we stop at once in awhile has'nt pulled a permit for anything (I know the guy that owns it) and most of the work is performed by patrons:eek:

[denangme]

Thanks for all the input guys. I just had "lesson" on posting pics by my wife. I put some in the "Pics of your shop" thread.

[Farmer]

I've worked with some contrators that apply foam. Best to have professionals do it. It's messy, the fumes are nasty, it's easy to over apply or under apply both costing you more money. It's like spraying on your own bedliner. Sure anyone can do it but the pro's do it best. Mark

[IHI]

I've worked with some contrators that apply foam. Best to have professionals do it. It's messy, the fumes are nasty, it's easy to over apply or under apply both costing you more money. It's like spraying on your own bedliner. Sure anyone can do it but the pro's do it best. Mark

This is usually the case with most every DIY related venture. alot of folks think they know, but have no idea;)

Just like I tell my customers, the only ones that can afford to be cheap are the rich ones, they can afford to do it twice.:wink

[denangme]

I would love to have a professional spray it. The problem is that I only found one guy in my area that does it. And he won't do it unless he sees a load of drywall sitting there to be put up afterward because of codes about a fire barrier. I plan on drywalling it but a little at a time as cash and time permits, but that's a no go to him. I contacted a supplier with my dimensions and they figured it would take 10 kits, and about $6000. Add the price of drywall to that and the labor to have someone else spray it. Since it's a garage and not my house, I'm willing to take the chance and learn as I go. I'm not a complete knucklehead, I think I can handle it. On the flip side of the comment about do it your-selfers, there also seems to be a lot of professionals that make it sound like nobody else is capable of doing the job without even knowing them or their abilities........

[IHI]

On the flip side of the comment about do it your-selfers, there also seems to be a lot of professionals that make it sound like nobody else is capable of doing the job without even knowing them or their abilities........

I did'nt mean anything derogitory, but most guys in this business (construction) know what I mean. I call it the "police man attitude" You know how most cops that have been around awhile get grizzly and a better than you attitude, my wife and I are freinds with many officers and my uncle has been a deputy for 25yrs, the thing they've all told me when we're talking is that when most of your waking hours (work weeks) are spent dealing with the scum of society, you tend to take a mindset that society sucks and people in general suck. Granted it's not right, but is the way it is. Same thing with contracting, those that have been around awhile have had to fix complete debotcheries left behind from those who thought they knew what they were doing....I dont care what anybody says, and those being honest know this first hand, doing a job day in and day out teaches you things that no book in a library or article online or a buddies uncles brother's freind can. just the way it is.

Like I said, no offense to anybody here since I know folks on both sides of the coin, helpless and ones that missed their true calling, the difference is when a person knows when to say when and call in a pro. Could i build my own motors to be a DIY and save money to put elesewhere in racing?? darn right...but all I have to do on any race day is look at the DIY guys with the hoods up or broke down and back on the trailer to justify letting guys that do motors/trannies/reare ends deal with the stuff that matters so I can not be bothered with the after math of thinking I knew:)