Fisher 9.5 problems

[Mark Oomkes]

First of all thanks to Chuck and Chris, this site is great.

I missed most of the thread at the other site when the Fisher rep was on. We are getting a 9.5 installed on a 550 right now so I would like to know what, where, etc the problems with the creasing were. If anybody has pictures, that would be great.

I am also wondering from those of you who had this problem, would you recommend reinforcing it right away, or is it something that we should wait until it happens.

Thanks in advance.

[wyldman]

If it was me,i'd break out the welder and reinforce it.Be aware though,that you'll ruin the factory finish,and most likely the warranty,at least on the wings anyways.

It would be nice to get the Fisher rep(s) over here for a bit.

[nben]

We've got one on a HD3500. It's on it's 5th season and is holding up well. The plow developed it's creases during the 1st season, but no cracks of yet. I don't think I would be overly concerned about reinforcing it right now, but if cracks start, I would get on them! I think ArcBurn has more 1st hand experience with this than most of us.

My own opinion of the crease problem is that the design doesn't allow for a lot of flex in the moldboard. The hinge side has no option but to remain rigid, leaving all the flex to the outboard side of the moldboard. With the construction design of the "torque box", any flex in the moldboard is amplified back to that flat plate. The plate cannot shrink in size or absorb the torsional movement of the moldboard, leaving no other option than for it to buckle or "crease".

If it were mine, I would keep an eye on it for now. Make sure that any cracks you see are actually cracks and not cracking or failing powdercoat. I wouldn't think it would be worth voiding the entire plow warranty by messing with it right now. Beware though, any cracks or creasing that may develope will most likely be shrugged off as owner abuse/misuse, a classic Fisher answer for a (my opinion only) questionable design from the beginning.

[Arc Burn]

First off,i'm a computer idiot!I have pics on a digital camera but am having technical difficulties with the damn thing,I only hope they are still on there:p
Those pictures were EXTREME cases and one was twisted beyond recognition,clearly abuse.
I've talked with numerous reps who assure me the problems are not as widespread as some think,while i haven't seen hundreds,i have seen a fair share and all the 9.5V's were creased on the backside of the moldboard,not all were cracked.I've seen busted A-frames and cracked headgears as well,i don't know if it was abuse,just issues i've seen first hand.
I would not try to reinforce a new plow,your just asking for warrantty headaches,play it by ear and hopefully it isn't as big a problem as some think,ypu can always reinforce when the time comes.
My biggest complaint with it is once it creases,the powder coating cracks and peels,then what?I don't know either.
I also understand that Fisher is looking into some of the crease complaints to find out if they can do something structurally but something ultimately has to give,in this case it's the moldboard.
Crash935 works at good sized dealer,i'll ask him to post any of their findings.

[BWhite]

Dino had posted crease pics on the other site . Maybe he can put them here ?

[Mark Oomkes]

I'm not to worried about the warranty issue. I don't really want to mess up the the finish if it has been only a minor issue.

The other thought I had while talking with the installer is to just cut off the appropriate amount of cutting edge and put a U-edge on it right away. I would think this would take care of almost all this type of issue.

I guess I was trying to see how much of an issue this is, is it similar to The Boss V where as soon as you catch something that wing is tweaked basically forever.

Thanks so far.

[Crash935]

nben, you hit it right on the head.... its a torque box, its designed to absorb blade flex. Both the western/fischer 8-6's and the 9-6's have them. Under "normal" use the box may not crease right away, if it does crease, it does not affect the blade any way. The 9-6's tend to do it right away because of the extra foot hanging out there. I did see the pics on the last site and i would have to guess that most of what was shown was abuse (JMO). I install about 30 v-plows every year, 2 came back last year with blade issues. One was obvious that it was warranty, the second was borderline but was warrantied, neither had anything to bo with the torque box.

[Brian Simmons]

Here i am. As far as the creasing goes yes you will see a crease more so on the 9 1/2' V-plow. This is a difficult area to work with. As stated earlier most manufacturers have issues with bending. For the most part if the blade still sits level on the ground the blade is fine. The reason this area creses is that it sees most of the stress while plowing.

[Arc Burn]

LOL!,i was wondering when you'd get here,I only told them what i've seen first hand and what you told me,no bashing,just concerned customers:)

[Mark Oomkes]

Plowtech, in your opinion has this been from abuse or is it happening more or less frequently with 'normal' use?

Is the 'torque box' really necessary then?

This is one of the reasons we are getting away from Boss V's, that is the twisting of the wing when hitting\catching something. Our blacksmith\installer believes that the same design boxed in area on the Boss is what prevents it from flexing back after something is hit. He thinks it is almost too strong.

Hopefully the trip edge will react quicker and we will not see this problem as quickly or at all. I may just go ahead and cut off the bottom edge off the scraper and install a U-edge right away.

Welcome and its great to see manufacturers reps willing to discuss these types of issues.

[Chuck Smith]

I didn't have time to jump in on the thread where Greg was answering posts at the other site. I wanted to ask about the limitation when stacking with a 9.5 V. What I am getting at, is that the 8.5 V will ride up the pile when stacking, so far that it hits the lift ram, there are no stops. The 9.5' V stops about halfway through its arc of travel. Mounted on a F550, that could be a lot of weight behind that.... The F550 I drove last winter, was not abused when I was driving it, and it had cracked welds, and creases. The truck weighed less than most F-350's. It was a flat bed, no sides, and two empty 300 gallon spray rigs on the back. It was so light I had traction problems. I would be scared to plow with a full V box on it..... as far as damaging the plow goes. THe F-550 sits so much higher than a F-350, yet, there is a limitation on how high the blade will go for stacking.

I think an X brace on the back of the moldboards like the X blade has, would deflect the stress much better. Then again, I'm not an engineer, but I play one on AOL...LOL

~Chuck

[Arc Burn]

The 9.5 V's i was seeing were also on bigger trucks,(450,550) with sanders and dump bodies,i said from the get go that all that weight wasn't helping anything.
Hopefully what ever little input we can give may be some sort of help.
As a dealer i have nothing to gain by shooting the plow down,i just firmly believe that if any company can perfect this style plow it will be Fisher,my concern came when Gary basically shruged off all claims of the creases and cracks:confused: They all have their quirks,i was just hoping that we the end user could help iron out the wrinkles.
On a side note,i did just put one on a 03' Ford F-350 SRW which will not carry a sander this season,it's a local truck so i'm gonna keep an eye on it,owner/operator so it shouldn't see to much abuse,i hope:p

[Mark Oomkes]

Thanks guys for the encouragement. :D

Ours is going on a F550 with a Monroe RDS dump body and back plow. With what you're telling me, it sounds like we're just about guaranteed to have problems. It doesn't sound like the U-edge will necessarily prevent the problem either.

Oh well, we own the plow now, it's too late for that one. Chuck, it sounds like you and my installer are thinking pretty much along the same lines.

[nben]

I wouldn't be too upset yet Mark. Like I said, ours is on it's 5th season and the only problem is the creases. The truck has a 10' vee box and seldom leaves the shop under 22,000. On a side note, we have some 8.5' e-z vees too, creases and all. Last week the oldest one was sandblasted (older style with combined trip spring perches), and on close inspection, there were no cracks that I could find.

[Brian Simmons]

Mark,
I would agree with nben. First try the plow and see how it performs for you. The box section was designed to strenghten the wings in the area that sees greater stress. Under normal plowing these blades have performed well. We use a trip track to test plow designs on. It consist of about ten 2" steel pins sticking up about 3-4" set about 8 feet apart set in cement anchors. We drive the plows over these pins at different speeds and with the blade in different postions. We use a F-450 truck to test the plows. The tests are run with and without a spreader in the back. When tested on the track the blade is tossed around quite violently, usually the headlights blow out of the housings. We know we cannot simulate real plowing senarios by this means but between this and field testing we get a good grasp on what this blade can handle. If the blade can handle all of this testing and not be damaged then under normal use the blade will hold up fine. The pictures posted on the other site showed evidence of abuse. Look at how far back the end of the blade was tweaked. When the 9 1/2" vee is all the way back against the stops and you hit an immovable object something has to give. Most of the time when we talk to end users usually the culprit turns out to be a hidden object under the snow. Everyone should realize these plows are usually put on the bigger/heavier trucks. There is a fine line between building a plow strong enough to handle the larger trucks and keeping the weight down enough so that they can be put on the trucks. Chuck, I am not sure what you mean by the lack of travel between the two plows. Both blade sizes use the same headgear kit. The only difference would be on how they were initially set up - I.E. The number of spacers used in the A-frame stop kit for the original MM1 or whether or not the A-frame stops are installed on the MM2 attachments.

[urethane dino]

That plow pic on the other site was a plow that caught one man hole cover. I think a plow should be able to absorb the impact and bend like a limp noodle. Just my opinion, and just be glad I didnt own the plow, cause it would have been returned to fisher through the showroom, if they wouldn stand behind it.
Dino

[Arc Burn]

I believe Chuck is refering to the A-frame stops that bolt on which i do put on the 8.5's that i install,Western doesn't use the stops?Or are they being left off by the installer?Are you still talking about the Western pics from the other site Chuck?

[Brian Simmons]

Dino you need to be Professional. You made your point at the other site. All you are doing is trying to stir up the pot. You were not there so you do not know. You do not even have any of our products. I am over here to help people who may need technical advice. The e-mail I received from Chuck encouraged Mfg reps to on board. So here i am. The one thing i will not deal with are remarks like you posted. Its not a very good way to attract other Mfg's Reps either. This issue has ended. If it continues in any way the only person this site will have to blame will be you, as i will not return, and that is not fair to others!

To all - this does not mean that i do not want to hear your comments or concerns. I still want to hear any suggestions or comments you have good or bad, just in a professional manner. I want to be here to help, i feel that is good customer service and i enjoy it.

[Chuck Smith]

Yes Arc, I was talking about Westerns. The 8.5 that Dockboy has, does not have any stops on it. The 9.5 I used last winter, has stops. I feel the stops are a problem, because they do not allow the plow to go high enough when stacking. I had to take it VERY easy to not make the plow slam against the stops when stacking.

I may be wrong, but I could have sworn the moldboard designs are exactly the same on the Western and Fisher V's, just a different color. I will also be the first to say I have never owned or used a Fisher. I have owned a Western, and used many Westerns, and I have no real complaints. If I went to buy a plow tomorrow, it would be a Fisher or a Western, that much I can say with confidence....

In Dino's defense, he has owned and installed quite a few Fishers, that I know of. I guess I missed what transpired recently. On the flip side, Dino can be very opinionated, and I don't mean that in a bad way, just pointing it out. I remember a few debates, where Dino was the Fisher fan in the debate....

I am very glad to have a guy with Dino's knowledge here. Additionally, I am equally as glad that Brian has joined us. I want to say "now play nice guys" but that seems stupid to say (I know, I just said it...).

My goal here is to have manufacturers and experienced snow plowing contractors, interacting together in a professional manner. I know it is hard, but sometimes we just have to "smile from the wrists down", to keep it professional, even when we are not really smiling.

~Chuck

[Crash935]

Chuck, what western v were you using, uni-mount or ultra-mount? On the uni, the stops are welded to the front of the lift frame assembly. On the ultra, the stops are installed by the installer, depending on what configuration the plow is built as dictaets how the stops are set.

[Honest Mike]

Crash, Im pretty sure Chuck was using the UniMount setup, but Im sure he will be back though to say for sure. Mike :)

[Chuck Smith]

The 9.5 I used was a Unimount, and so is Dockboy's.

I am a "problem solver" type. I keep thinking about a problem until I find a fix, or a reason something happened....

In this case, it keeps going back to those stops. That is a heavy front end, with a PSD motor. Those stops prevent the blade from going any higher when stacking, and once the plow makes contact with the stops, then as the plow is trying to ride up the pile, it is lifting the front end of the truck. Not literally, but it is taking weight off the axle.

I just can't accept that it is from hitting immovable objects with a wing folded back against the stops, be it in the V position, or full angle to either side. Why don't straight plows when fully angled against the stops, and used the same way, end up in the same condition? I mean if you took similar widths, like a straight 9' and a 9.5 V?

I am trying to understand this, nothing more. Remember, this was discussed in detail, back in February. We never really did get an answer other than "abuse". Exactly what kind is uncertain.

I would like to think the trip edge would prevent damage from contact with objects like the test track uses.

Brian, does the test track have anything that simulates pushing back frozen windrows, exerting force on the outer edge of the wing, when it is folded back against the stop?

And thanks for discussing this with us. I know that Fisher and Western do more testing than any other manufacturer,

~Chuck

[Arc Burn]

I mentioned the last time we spoke of this that i believe it's happening in the V position or angle as opposed to scoop(which many felt was the culprit,while in scoop)The V's in my area were purchased primarily for the V ability to break open long steep drives,very rarely do the operators use the scoop position.

Chuck,one other thing we need to clarify in this conversation are the actual stops,i'm sure you know there are the "angle" stops and also "vertical" stops.There are no angle stops on the 8.5V and vertical stops are used at the end of the install if when the headgear pushed fully foward(while detatched) interferes with the A-Frame,so they are not always used in every application.

I should have reread this as i am forgetting what we have covered thus far:confused: :p

[Crash935]

Okay, how about this. you dont see it in a straight blade because the entire blade flexs the lenght and height of the blade (example-- the proplus now comes with a torsional tube running the lenght of the blade to allow for flex) where as the v blade can only flex on the outer half of the blade and not on the inner portion because the pivot pin and A-frame hold that portion of the blade rigid. And also where the cylinder (on 8.5) pins to the moldboard or where the angle stops (on 9.5) meet the mold board acts as a pivot point for the flex of the board. Not sure if cylinder location or stop location have anything to do with it but you would have to think so, otherwise there wouldnt be a stop on the 9.5 blades where the problems seem to be more noticeable.

So how rigid do you make a blade? Something has to give, is it the blade, mount or the truck. After having personally taken a manhole cover head on and dead center at 30 mph, im glad that the only thing i have to show for it is a somewhat bowed blade and a couple of bent ribs on the back of the board form the high speed return of the blade.

If we keep this going, we just might be able to get fischer to build the perfect v if we get them enough input.