What Are These White Lines??

[Honest Mike]

Guys, I have been meaning to ask this. Everytime before we are expected to get a storm, I notice there are thin white lines all over my town on the streets, like they are driving around and spraying something on the ground. They go up all the streets, and then come back down on the other side. There is like 10 or so lines. Im betting it has something to do with not allowing the snow to stick or something. What are these lines? What kind of setup does this? I never see them do it, when I come home from work, they are all over the place, but like I said, only before a storm is expected to hit. Tomorrow we are expecting a storm, today I come home from work, and there are these white lines, all over the place. I dont see this anywhere else, just my town. It must be something new as well, because I dont remember seeing them last year, or I would have asked about it last year. :haha Mike :feedback

[Chuck Smith]

Funny you should mention it Mike, I noticed them on RT 23 here on the hills. Not really "new" though. Looks like salt brine applied with pencil tip nozzles. They started last week sometime here. Could be any liquid de-icer though.

About time the towns and State got up to speed with private contractors (who have been doing it for years, though not much around here). It is the first time I have seen proactive measures taken. The pretreating will buy them some time until they can get out in full force.

~Chuck

[wyldman]

It's most likely brine they are laying down.They can make it easily,and it's farily cheap.Equipment is pretty much the same as most liquid application rigs,which consist of a large tank,a pump,and a spray boom.

[Grader4me]

Funny you should mention it Mike, I noticed them on RT 23 here on the hills. Not really "new" though. Looks like salt brine applied with pencil tip nozzles. They started last week sometime here. Could be any liquid de-icer though.

About time the towns and State got up to speed with private contractors (who have been doing it for years, though not much around here). It is the first time I have seen proactive measures taken. The pretreating will buy them some time until they can get out in full force.

~Chuck
Pretreating with a liquid salt brine works very well when applied before the storm hits, as it prevents the snow from bonding to the surface but I have seen situations that sudden drops in temperature had turned the road into a skating ring after it was applied.
I am really curious as to the "lines" that you guys are seening, as I am sure that it is a brine, but wouldn't the liquid spread out causing these lines to disappear? Maybe there is more of a salt concentration in the brine. Does it work well? Its just that I never heard tell of visible lines before unless the liquid has been on for some time, dried and left the lines of salt but usually the whole road is just white after it drys

[Mark Oomkes]

I would agree that it is probably salt brine because it is cheap to make\buy. There are a couple problems with it, one mentioned by peterrp, you can cause more harm than good under certain circumstances. These are usually when not mixed at 23%, though.

The other problem is that just like the other liquids out there, they use water as a carrier. But with salt brine, when the water evaporates, it leaves the sodium chloride residue there (just like oversalting with granular) and then become an airborne pollutant and also cause corrosion. The difference with Caliber, Magic, and Ice-Ban is the solids that are used as the anti-\de-icing chemical stay in the pavement and reactivate when water hits them.

Yes and no on the lines. It somewhat depends on traffic and somewhat on the liquid. Caliber will 'migrate' between the nozzles somewhat and traffic will fill in the spaces as well.

[wpd519]

Yes, it's a brine pretreatment. ODOT "Ohio Department Of Transportation" uses it on the interstate routes around here. They use a big tanker truck that has about 6-10 small nozzles on the back. They just go back and forth on the highway and spray before we get snow or ice. It really does help from what I have seen.

Josh
Owner
Essential Lawn Care & Snowplowing


98 Dodge Ram 2500HD, 7.6 Western Ultramount w/backdrag, Saltdogg Spreader

[Limestone]

"I notice there are thin white lines all over my town on the streets, like they are driving around and spraying"


Don't sniff the little white lines

[Grader4me]

Yes, it's a brine pretreatment. ODOT "Ohio Department Of Transportation" uses it on the interstate routes around here. They use a big tanker truck that has about 6-10 small nozzles on the back. They just go back and forth on the highway and spray before we get snow or ice. It really does help from what I have seen.

Josh
Owner
Essential Lawn Care & Snowplowing


98 Dodge Ram 2500HD, 7.6 Western Ultramount w/backdrag, Saltdogg Spreader


Many companys have proven that by using this method you end up using much less salt do do the job. In our part of the country, Enviroment Canada has determined that salt is a hazzard to the enviroment and they want all DOT departments, citys, contractors etc. to develop a salt management plan. A big part of this plan is better house keeping around the domes or salt sheds at the depots so there is less chance of contamination. We are trying different methods of appling salt so that we end up using less and have the same results.

[snowmatt13]

The lines are a pre-treatment for pavement. In our area anti-icing before storms has becaome very popular recently. Depending on the organization there are all kinds of mixtures of what gets applied. Our agency uses salt brine. We make it in-house so it's very cheap. We will pre-treat when a storm is imminate or when there is no salt residue left on the road (i.e. after a rain). This does help keep an ice bond from forming to the bare pavement when it starts to snow. By doing this you get a fairly clean scrape right to the pavement which equals less salt that need to be applied to keep the brine layer in a continious storm or in a clean-up operation. Now our county uses a mixture of salt brine, beet juice, and cal. chloride (I think. It may be mag. chol.) all mixed by certain percentages. Mixed together they call it "SuperMix". They do the same, anti-ice before storms, pre-wet duing. Unfortunately my camera took a s**t so I don't hae any pictures to post of us applying before a storm, anyone got any????

[cutntrim]

The "white lines" are in my city as well. Interestingly they're only on one side of the road, while the other side has more of a spread-out pattern of brine. I noticed that on every street they had done when I was dropping off invoices around town yesterday.

[Honest Mike]

Guys, thanks for the replies and explanations. I knew you guys here would know what it was. Yea, it does seem to help. The streets came out good, but then again, it wasnt a big storm. They did come through and plow too, but not sure it really needed it, it was only like an inch or so. Then the salt truck came through and that did the rest. Like I said earlier, I only started noticing these lines around here this year, I guess they are trying something new. If you look closely at the lines, it does appear to have been put down as a liquidy substance and then it dries and leaves that lined/stained look. Once the storm is over, and the plowing and salting is done, the lines are gone. Mike

[snowmatt13]

Yes, definately a liquid when put down. When the water "dries" it leaves that white salt residue on the road. This has taken over for pre-salting. This is a much better way of keeping a salt substance on the roads.

[jt5019]

Still dont see much pretreating around here... if any at all. I know the state dot has a couple rigs with tanks full of some kind of liquid but i only see them out after its already snowing. For the most part we still use the old fashioned sand/salt mix method

[Grader4me]

Still dont see much pretreating around here... if any at all. I know the state dot has a couple rigs with tanks full of some kind of liquid but i only see them out after its already snowing. For the most part we still use the old fashioned sand/salt mix method


I would guess that the tanks are full of a calcium water mix, which they use to spray the granular salt before it hits the road. This procedure pre-wets the salt so that it develops a brine quicker instead of fully relying on the moisture of the snow/ice on the road. Seems to work well as the calcium also speeds up the process.

[NNJSnow]

Chuck I noticed the lines myself, on RT 23, asked a buddy of mine who works for the State DOT down in Riverdale, he said its liquid de-icer they are trying out, He said they have been trying it all winter, trying it before and during a storm, basically testing it. They have a liquid sprayer setup they've been doing it from the bottem of the Riverdale hill RT. 23 to up north near you. Hard to tell if its been workin, but its funny you mention that mike cuz a lot of people have been talking about that, "What are those white lines?"

Jeff

[jt5019]

I would guess that the tanks are full of a calcium water mix, which they use to spray the granular salt before it hits the road. This procedure pre-wets the salt so that it develops a brine quicker instead of fully relying on the moisture of the snow/ice on the road. Seems to work well as the calcium also speeds up the process.

Yes i think you are right. They have small tanks attached to the tailgates of some of the trucks which wets the sand before it hits the road. They also have a truck that has a big tank that spreads it directly on the road.I think they are still testing because Ct DOT has 600 something plow trucks and you only see a few with these set ups.

[William B.]

They have been doing this for several years around here. The city bought a couple old DOT trucks setup to put the liquid down. They all have large tanks in the front of the dump bed. The also run sand/salt mix during the storm.

William

[Chuck Smith]

Here's a pic of them on RT 23.

~Chuck

[NNJSnow]

I lucked out the other day, I got stuck right behind the NJDOT's liquid deicing truck. They have a Sterling single axle with a flatbed, tank on the back....hard to say how big of a tank it was but it wasnt small, and behind that they had a crash truck followin it along. I guess there was a small chance of winter weather this week or they were jus trying to empty the tanks but i saw them spraying it on, pretty neat, they could move along pretty quick, wish I had my digital camera.

Jeff

[Grader4me]

guess there was a small chance of winter weather this week or they were jus trying to empty the tanks but i saw them spraying it on, pretty neat, they could move along pretty quick, wish I had my digital camera.

Jeff


Just curious as to how long in advance of a storm that they spray, surely it would be hours not days? I wonder how long the solution could lay on the road and still be effective. Then again if it was on the road for to long, the traffic blow it off in dust.
Great picture of the lines!!

[Pelican]

On my trip to Arkansas, a number of the states use this system. It took a while to figure out what they were, but I finally saw a truck putting the brine down.

[Chuck Smith]

If I am not mistaken, they have been there all week. Even with heavy truck traffic. After each event, they reapply and it stays there until the next one.

~Chuck

[Grader4me]

I find this topic very interesting as in the all the years that I have been working with the DOT I have never seen lines left like this before, although I realize that anti-icing and pre-treating is relatively new.
I would say and this is just a guess...in order for these lines to stay that long on the road there is more than just a salt and water/calcium mix. I have seen the road completely white from oversalting, and also from the brine treatment but always gone after a couple of days at the most.
I realize that I am probally beating this topic to death but would anyone know the chemicals that are used for this type of anti-icing?

[snowmatt13]

We use salt brine. Nothing more, nothing less. Other agencies use all kinds of chemicals and mixtures. How long it lasts??? I'm not sure, I couldn't give you a time frame. We apply when snow/ice is forecsted, usually the day before. We have done it and the snow missed us, but then it rained and washed it all off the road.

[Mark Oomkes]

We use Caliber M1000 for parking lots and NC3000 for some sidewalks.

It's just like salt or any de-icing chemical, it lasts until it's diluted. We've had it effective for over 2 weeks. We applied and it didn't snow, but a couple weeks later we had heavy frost\black ice and our lots were black all the others were white with frost.

Caliber has the corn steep\silk\whatever complex carbohydrates that are used in addition to mag chloride. Michigan DOT is using it as well as some other DOT's. Some use salt brine because of cost differences. I prefer Caliber because it is less corrosive than salt and does a better job of staying where it's supposed to. You alluded to that, that salt brine will dry once the water evaporates, then it becomes an airborne particulate which in turn becomes air pollution.

[Grader4me]

Thanks for the replys guys. It makes you wonder...the Caliber M1000 would obviously be more expensive to purchase as the mag chloride in itself is quite costly. Most departments, ours included lean toward the most cost effective way to bare the roads and the answer is salt. Mark, what you are saying is very interesting. If this mixture lasts that long on the road before it evaporates and it is less corrosive than salt, then which would be cheaper in the long run? Something to think about....:huh

[Honest Mike]

Chuck, great pic! Yep, just like I said, if you count them, there is 10 white lines. :nodd Not to go off topic too far, but is that shot of route 23 anywhere near good ole "haunted" Clinton Road?? Well, they say its haunted, I never had anything weird happen to me there, I have visited it a few times tho to "test it out". That road is talked about on www.WeirdNJ.com, in the "Roads Less Traveled" section, which is where I learned about it. Mike

[Mark Oomkes]

Peter, I have some information from one of my contacts from Syntech\Glacial Technologies. He was in charge of the salt reduction program at U of M. Here is the quote from a letter he wrote to a couple different organizations:

Sadly, at thirty to forty dollars per ton material cost, salt is considered cheap. This couldn’t further from the truth. When considering the cumulative costs of damage caused by salt, a recent report from Montana State University pegged the real costs of salt use to be around $469.00 per ton. This may be a conservative estimate as other reports have put that number around $1200.00 per ton.

I can get some more information on this if you desire. I don't believe the true costs of salt are always considered when using just salt. You are correct, salt and salt brine may not be as 'inexpensive' as believed.

The problem I am having with straight salt brine is as I stated. It is the same thing as applying granular rock salt. If applied too heavy and the residue is left on the pavement, the water that dilutes the salt and causes de-icing evaporates, you are left with salt. We all know what salt will do. I can't remember exactly, but I believe studies have shown that aerial salt spray can and will travel at least 1000' off the road, it may be more, but I know it was at least this much. So either it pollutes the foliage or infrastructure along the roadways or when it dries and becomes a particulate in the air which creates air pollution. It will also attach itself to vehicles, bridges (above and below the roadway) plants, etc.

While we're talking about white lines and the true cost of salt, here's some nice pics to look at. IT IS NOT OUR CUSTOMER. :nope

PS Maybe Chuck can darken them a little. I'm not real computer literate.

[Mark Oomkes]

Last one, I think this one is a little better. The parking lot is also salt, you can see where it was not spread under the cars, but it was in the drives. The circle is from the drop spreader that they use on the walks.

[Mark Oomkes]

Crap, I tried darkening them down, but exceeded the time limit for editing.

[Grader4me]

Mark,
I really appreciate the information that you are providing. It is very informative and interesting. Yes, any more info that you could get would be great. This is all good stuff and I will forward it on to my people. A lot of departments and municipalities are trying new methods and mixtures that does the job, and is easier on the enviroment. To find a mixture that works well and is "enviromentally friendly" not to mention cheaper over the long run...then it would definitely be worth looking into.
By the way...great pictures

[Mark Oomkes]

Peter, I just e-mailed him for more info as well as invited him to join LTS. Hopefully he will, because he knows way more than I do about this kind of stuff. I have learned most of what I know about anti-icing from him, Dale Keep and Scott Zorno (szorno). If Scott's finished taking care of his blizzard, maybe he'll chime in on this thread too.

[pbeering]

There has actually been quite a lot of research done on this topic, mostly on the eastern seaboard due to water contamination worries. The EPA and US DOT have a whole series of materials on point.

This is among the reasons we switched to Magic, and refuse to throw white salt into anything other than the water softener.

Among the complications to this discussion is the cost of insurance and litigation. Many properties only do anti/de-icing to avoid insurance claims and litigation. This tends to result in over-application of products. (If some is good, more must be better)

At the end of the day it is about material cost, maintenance cost, environmental cost, and customer education (there are a number of "customers") As is the case with many things, there are many trade-offs.