Blizzard Damage!

[Pelican]

John D and I were at Mike Nelson's the other day, he showed one of his 8611s that his driver had damaged. John took the pics and sent them to me, here they are with description.

John and I noticed right off there was something not right with this truck, both the plow and the truck were leaning to the right. When Mike extended the wing, the problem became obvious.

[Pelican]

Apparently Mike's driver had hit a curb at a high rate of speed with the wing partially extended. The back of the wing buckled as you see, plus there was other damage. This pic shows how the moldboard was damaged.

[Pelican]

The plow frame cross tube was also tweaked, look closely you'll sdee the crossmember is on two different planes.

[Pelican]

Here's a shot of a straight tube for comparison.

[Pelican]

The push plate was also bent, John and I think the truck frame might be tweaked too where the plate attaches, the truck leans to the right a bit. Notice the cracked paint around the bolt head.

[Pelican]

Here's a straight plate for comparison.

[Pelican]

Even though the plow took a severe hit, it still functions as normal. In fact, Mike has said he has no plans to repair it until the end of the season. No Blizzards are not indestructable, but they can take a good shot and keep on working.

In the experience I've had with my 810, the force that caused this damage must have been caused by excessive speed, I've hit a raised basin with the wing and come to a dead stop at about 15 mph, I blew a hose and dented the cutting edge, nothing like the damage you see here.

[Lawngodfather]

Wonder if he was doing 40 or so when this happened..

That had to be one hard hit to take out that much stuff.

[Snowtime]

He had to be moving at a very good clip. But it's great to see that the plow can with stand that type of hit and keep on plowing with all it's functions. Very impressive piece of machinery. That should speak for it's quality. These plows are built to last.


P.S. I'd hate to see the curb he hit!!!!!!!!

[John DiMartino]

I think this damage is entirely driver abuse.The main plow frame seems to be perfect,the damage seems to be the wing,and truck mount entirely.Pelcan and I were both looking in amazement at how much damage was done to this plow,especially considering just how beefy it is built.I think the truck frame cross bar is not going to make the season personally,it is tweaked back a good 1-2" and creased slightly in the front.I couldnt get a good pic from the side,but it needs to be reinforced or replaced. What else is amazing is the 8611 is only on an f350 Single wheel short bed excab truck,not very heavy at all for an 8611,so the driver had to be flying to do that kind of damage with such a light truck(for the 8611's intended application).

[JD PLOWER]

Having plowed for about 50 - 60 hours with the 8611 I have to say that is probably driver abuse. I hit a couple of things while plowing that stopped the truck cold in the first storm and I thought at one point the plow HAS TO BE DAMAGED but when I inspected it, it was fine. Only damage is a minor dent in the cutting edge. One thing to keep in mind with these plows is when plowing at full extension you have 11' of iron hanging out there and its harder to keep track of then you might think. The biggest plow I had used prior to this one was a 10' and that was on a L8000 so this plow almost looks out of scale by comparison on the 550. The odds of hitting a curb or manhole go up dramatically with a plow this size. Hope to hear good things about the blizzard company when it comes to repairs.

[Chuck Smith]

I hope the driver had his seat belt on! Man, he must have hit it with a solid shot.

~Chuck

[Prosno]

Steve I dont see the safty pins in the frame.???????????

[snowplowjay]

OUCH that hurts. To damage a brand new $5000+ plow and a $30,000+ truck. Glad to see no one was hurt and that the blade is still operable. Also good to see that the Blizzard held up that well to such an impact.



Jay

[Pelican]

Bill, I noticed that when I was posting the pics, not sure why he doesn't have them on. Both trucks are missing them.

[snowplowjay]

Originally posted by Pelican
Bill, I noticed that when I was posting the pics, not sure why he doesn't have them on. Both trucks are missing them.


If you look closely in the second picture you will see that the pins are actually drapped over the Blade Guide.



Jay

[phillyplowking1]

Man that must have been some curb!Im really supprised more wasnt damaged. Why put a 8611 on a F-350 thats way to much for that truck.

[Lawngodfather]

In the last pic, the one of the side frame, what is bolted to it, the prior one does not have anything bolted ot it.

[90plow]

Alot of plow for that truck :rolleyes: I think so too Philly. the 8611 is only on an f350 Single wheel short bed excab truck,not very heavy at all for an 8611, If its only a 350 then what would a bigger truck have done :confused: I think Blizzard looks decent and this proves they can hold up, but maybe the guy was speeding in order to keep it moving on the small truck. I dont know just an idea.
Eric

[Crimedog]

omg :geez :zoinks That had to be quite a hit!!! We already hit a curb that stopped us, and it didn't do anything! Did he ever say how fast he was going?

LGF: I see what you're talking about on the bottom of the truck frame, where the plate goes, there are 2 bolts that attatch in the second pic, but not in the first?? I wonder if it would have helped any having them in???

Seeing pics like these and hearing that the plow still functions will let me sleep easier!

[Pelican]

Mike says the driver hasn't given him an accurate account of what happened, only that he wasn't going "too fast"!:nope

I think the pictures tell a different story.....

[festerw]

Originally posted by Pelican
Mike says the driver hasn't given him an accurate account of what happened, only that he wasn't going "too fast"!:nope

I think the pictures tell a different story.....

"too fast" to you is probably completely different than "too fast" to him

[Mike Nelson]

I would like to " Thank " John And Pelican for taking these pics for everyone to see.

This was done during our first storm of the season. The driver was at the airport (Stewart) and working with me on the tarmac. Everything was fine, until I sent him over to help out at the post office! He came back and told me he tweaked the one side a little. Well finally getting a break and able to look at it, that is more than a little! I think if this was a 810, it might not have survived as well.

I don't blame the driver, because we did not train him on the use of this particular plow. This is why we must train all of our employees on each piece of equipment even if it is a shovel. As our company grows training and safety is our biggest concern. Hopefully we can prevent this from happening again!

Thank You

[urethane dino]

Proof positive as to why I will be skipping the blizzard bandwagon.
Dino

[Lawngodfather]

Why, cause the plow actually took the hit, and didn't wipe out the whole truck?

I've seen worse damage from idiots plowing streets and taking out the whole truck, plow blade folded back (looked like a fixed V) to the front of truck and frame so tweeked you had to cut it off and replace it.

[wyldman]

Originally posted by urethane dino
Proof positive as to why I will be skipping the blizzard bandwagon.
Dino

I think it stood up way better than most plows would.Look at the damage to the mount,it was pretty severe hit.

Wasn't there pics of a crumpled Western V-blade a while back ? They will all break when you hit something,especially that hard.

[Lawngodfather]

I would like to add this to my above post.

I guess I am on the band wagon, this plow is so much faster than my straight blades, or even my straights with wings.

I am extremely impress with the way that plow looks in the pics, the entire plow has stout construction. The torque box built into the back makes them strong as heck.

Just look at the plow pictured, it only damaged the wing, and a small spot on the main blade looks to be done by the wing bending back, that I am sure can be fixed with a "BFH."

The mount looks to of handled it well too, might only have small frame damage. I had a Western that ripped totally out of the frame from a car accident while plowing.

[Mike Nelson]

The plow still performs well. Just looks a little tweaked LOL and to tell you the truth I might just leave alone.

No matter what plow you have, if you hit something hard enough it will bend !

All goes back to training!!!!

[snowplowjay]

Originally posted by urethane dino
Proof positive as to why I will be skipping the blizzard bandwagon.
Dino



I would have liked to have seen what would have happened with say a Meyer hung up front for example. The blizzard has tons more structural support and bulkyness. Lets just say the driver probably would have had his GHONES in his mouth if he were driving a truck hitched with another brand.


Id take a blizzard in that situation ANY DAY.


Jay

[urethane dino]

Looks to me like fisher and blizzard are using the same engineering team.
Lets see brand new blizzard and bent to hell in 1 storm vs 6 year old western v plow that still is straight and operates 100%
Yeah I think I will stay with the tried and true performer.
Can you imagine what those 8611 will look like when 15000+ lbs are pshing it. Can you say tin foil!!!
All I know is that i I payed over 5K for a plow that looked like that after one storm, I would not be a very happy Blizzard customer.
Sincerly
Dino

[John DiMartino]

I think anything will bend/ break if abused. Those who knowme know my western MVP was only a season old when i got it used ,and the A frame was tweaked on it.It was on a similar truck F350PSD crew cab short box,not very heavy,probably 9000 or less.Im stil running the bent A frame ,its bend down 1+inch on the pass side. I have pics if anyone wants too see them. I can see from the damage on the edge of the wing that the hit wasnt very hard. So the Western while strong certainly isnt indestructable.Then a month after that my unimount frame started pulling through the bolts,and would have feel right of the truck had i not noticed the lights moving around way to much.I personally would like a plow to be very strong yet fold before the truck frame gets damaged. It looks like the Blizzard did that.Your drivers/eployeees,are why your blades are in great shape too.I think this is a case of the driver just ging to fast and hitting something. Ill be honest im hoping next yr ill have blizzards on both my trucks that now have Vs. Seeing this damage has not scared me away at all.

[Prosno]

I have run Boss, fisher, Diamond, Meyers, mostly any of em out there I have had over my twenty five years in business. I can tell you with out a doubt that ANY PLOW I dont care who makes it, hit that hard will break. I've broken the best of them. I run two 810s and would never go back to any other blade, and thats coming from a 25 yr plowing veteran, and my other driver Kirk who has 18 under his belt.

[wyldman]

Originally posted by urethane dino
Looks to me like fisher and blizzard are using the same engineering team.
Lets see brand new blizzard and bent to hell in 1 storm vs 6 year old western v plow that still is straight and operates 100%
Yeah I think I will stay with the tried and true performer.
Can you imagine what those 8611 will look like when 15000+ lbs are pshing it. Can you say tin foil!!!
All I know is that i I payed over 5K for a plow that looked like that after one storm, I would not be a very happy Blizzard customer.
Sincerly
Dino

A brand new Western would have suffered the same fate,if not worse,after a hit like that.You cannot compare your six year old Western V-blade to a new Blizzard unless the operating conditions are the same.Have you ever hit anything like that ? Obviously not,as your blade is still in good shape.

I don't think it matters if it was bolted to a 9000,15000,or 50000 lb truck,when you hit something like that,somethings gotta give.It is obvious the Blizzard is not made of tin foil.

No matter what you payed for the Blizzard,I don't understand why you would be "an unhappy Blizzard customer".Would you expect them to warranty that ? If you hit something that hard with your Western,and ruined it,would you be an unhappy Western customer ? All blades have to bend\break or fail under those circumstances,or it would kill the truck.

Why all the negative posts towards the Blizzard ? If you don't like it,just don't buy it.No need to bash the manufacturer for no good reason.Western has there fair share of problems too,like weak a-frames,mounting ears tearing off the truck mounts,weak pivot areas,and creased moldboards.We don't bash them do we ?

I suggest you read this thread.It shows pretty well what happens when you hit something with a Western V-blade.Only difference is the Blizzard is still usable.

Damaged Western V-blade (http://www.snowplowing-contractors.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=773&perpage=20&highlight=western%20damage&pagenumber=1)

[snowjoker]

I am not a Blizzard plow owner but remember all the positive comments about them. Anyway where I am going is the truck side tube has been pushed due to the extra width of the blade there for acting like a 2 foot pipe on a breaker bar. Extra length means more damage with the same amount of pressure hitting the wing. S**** happens and I would not hesitate to buy a Blizzard because of what happened in this case.

[Lawngodfather]

I'm not going to push it to much further, but after reading Chucks thread on "cracks and creases with 9'6" Western V plow" I started looking elsewhere for a big multi plow.

I went Blizzard cause of many of the reviews about them I read on the net, plus being able to see some that have had troubles in the past at the place I picked mine up at, though 310 miles from my place. None of them detured me from buying the plow as you can see I have one.

A plow that can take that kind of hit and keep on working really has me looking at how well that torque box construction holds up, and I will buy another.

I most likely will be switching to Blizzard even after only one plow with mine so far.

You don't like it fine, but the proof is in the pudding in those pics. the plow is well built and strong, how can you keep dissing it?

[JD PLOWER]

To paraphrase pelican in another thread "Don't like it, don't buy it." Some people are just trolling.

[urethane dino]

All this talk about how fast and how hard the plow was hit. Fact is nobody even knows how fast the guy was going.
Second issue. Bottom line the plow is to big for a pick up or even a 550 for that matter. With 11' of plow pushing off a frame a touch over 2' is way to much leverage acting on the push points.
Look at an 11' plow n a 32K chassis, there is alot more frame to push with, and alot more counter weight to keep things pointed in the right direction.

For a plow that has been touted as the end all, holy grail of plowing, it sure does seem to have its share of problems. From iced up wings, to bad valve bodies, to a company that orders to few of " specialty" components so it meet demand, to company reps that wont listen to the end user, to " new designs" every year.

I agree with problems that western has seen with the 9.5 v plow, however my 8.5' has been execptional in its performance for me on two trucks. I have hit a few things pretty hard as well over the years. Last year I hit a curb hard enough to blow a hydro line. No damage to the plow tho.

Cutting time of my route is of no benifit to me if my truck and plow wont last more than a storm. At this rat new blizzard owners should be thrilled to get a whole season from a plow.

I really want to give the blizzard a try, I spoke with Jack LaRese about installing one on the new truck for next season. I am sure with me behind the wheel, I wont be waking things as hard as Mikes plow got hit, but I sure hope it doesnt turn out to be a tin can plow.

[Lawngodfather]

Dino, I won't bust your chops no more.... I am like you, stick with proven performers.

I went Blizzard cause I wanted more out of my plows, so I can afford to give one a shot, if it break I have others to back it up, no biggy.

I would of gotten a V plow, but gave Blizzard a shot, what can it hurt. Adding wings to a straght blade just doesn't cut it.

I just need more snow...............

Have plow's will travel........

Have a good holiday season Dino.

[snowplowjay]

Oh shucks Dino I wish you had come to ProSno's shop today. We would have had O SO MUCH FUN. We had an 8ft straight blade, an 810, and an 8611 waiting for ya. Me and ProSno and Snowtime and Pelican thought for sure youd stop up. :(


Oh well hopefully after Christmas all of us Northeast guys can meet up and have a nice little get together.


Lets set a date.




Jay

[paulsoccodato]

i dont this topic should turn into a "brand war".

its impossible to say that a western mvp, or fisher mm, etc..., would've taken that hit better or worse.

mostly all commercial grade plows made today are fairly stout.

ive seen brand new excavator buckets, destroyed in a month's time from abuse, same for loader buckets.

all depends on how it's used/abused

[urethane dino]

I wanted to make to Bills party, but work once again got in the way. I have a 3 yo sick at home as well.
I promised a customer that their house would be finished sided for X mass, and with the two snow storms, rain in forcast o wed, I had to complete it today. Loaded up the trailer at 6pm and we were all done.
I think the real problem with the blizzards is that they cant handle the snow on the east coast. The light weight stuff you mid west guys get is fine for the plow, but when it gets into the real tough Nor Easter type snow, it get hell bent.LOL

[Mike Nelson]

I don't even know where to start with you Dino. In fact this will be my last post on this subject. Sorry I asked Pelican to post them. No need to bash Blizzard for my drivers mistake!

My plow still performs to a tee and Blizzard plows work for me and my company.
As far as handling the snow on the East coast, come on. We push more snow than the average snow removal company on the east coast. This was definitely driver error, and IT STILL WORKS!!!!!!!!

No one here asked you to buy one, so stick to what works for you and your company. If you tell me your plows are the best for you, that is fantastic. I wish you all the best. We run two entirely different business's.

Thank You and Have a Merry Christmas

[Snowtime]

ENOUGH SAID YET!!!!!!!!!


PICTURES AND PLOW SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES!!!!!!


WHAT LANGUAGE SOMEONE LISTENS TO IS A WHOLE OTHER STORY!!!!!!!

[snowplowjay]

PRICELESS!!!!!

[GeoffD]

nice fleet

[90plow]

Nice trucks, who's are they Jay?
Eric

[urethane dino]

Mike the comment about east coast snow was a joke.
I was just thinking about the 11' plow on a 12K lb chassis, and the chassis really is just to light to handle the stress imposed by 11' of plow hanging off it. Way to much leverage stress for lightweight frames, and push frames. This is not to say it wont work, but the as is shown by the pics, the driver has to be very carefull.
I think the blizzard is a great idea, and I plan on trying one on my next truck. But since I will be the only driver any blame and damage will rest squarely on my shoulders.
Lets just say that someone needs to take the opposite side of the argument, and I am very good at beating dead horses, and adding fuel to fire. I would think everyone hear would take everything I say with a few lbs of rock salt by now.
Have a good new year
Dino

[Lawngodfather]

Is that enough salt for ya Dino...

[urethane dino]

It will get me through the next storm anyway.
Dino

[snowplowjay]

Originally posted by 90plow
Nice trucks, who's are they Jay?
Eric

The truck on the far left and the far right are both SNOWTIME's and the middle two trucks are the Creative Landscapes trucks (ProSno).



Jay

[snowjoker]

Originally posted by Lawngodfather
Is that enough salt for ya Dino...

If it is not enough just add it to this.:D

[Mike Nelson]

Dino,

There is no one here better to argue with than you. LOL

I fully understand you concern with the 8611 on this truck. In fact I will be putting the 810 back on, because I am afraid of any more damage if I were to let someone else drive it or even me. The stress the 8611 is more than I want to put the truck through.

You better not try the Blizzard next year, unless you are prepared to switch all of your plows. After your first Blizzard experience you will be totally hooked. :haha

Oh don't forget to order your Blizzards now so you have it for next year! LOL

Merry Christmas

[urethane dino]

Jack has an 8' startight plow to put on my new truck for the rest of this season( if I find a truk in Jan). Then we will install the 810 before next winter.
Dino

[snowplowjay]

Originally posted by urethane dino
Jack has an 8' startight plow to put on my new truck for the rest of this season( if I find a truk in Jan). Then we will install the 810 before next winter.
Dino


And here it is DINO

All rigged and on display at the Christmas Party

[BWhite]

A Ma. Blizzard dealer told me that you dont want to hit any obstruction while backing with the wing out . He then showed me a bent wing that wouldnt retract . I am not bashing just giving you guys a heads up

[4evergreenlawns]

Dino,

IMHO and FWIW, it is normal and right to be questioning both dependabilty and durablity but not just of the Blizzard product line but ANY new product line that has seen the same kind of growing pains.

I have been watching for everything and anything about both the Bliazzard 810 and 8611 because I truly want one of each to replace both of my Westerns. It would be nice to see more than one year behind any one design change so lets see what changes there are for next year. If I was going to stay with a str8 blade I would go with the Western 9' Pro Plus.

I agree with your view that the 8611 with the wings extend to 11' is just TOO much blade width for a F-350 or any SRW P/U. It seems like Mike too thinks a change to the 810 is in order for the F-350 fairly enough.

I will say that after the hit that blade SHOULD have took to cause that damage and for the blade to still be working is amazing and a credit to the Blizzard blade construction.

The only question that really NEEDS to be investigated here is, "What caused the damage". Everyone here is looking and saying the same thing, "It must have been speed, the driver was going TOO fast". Wouldn't we all really like to know what ACTUALLY happen to cause the damage?

What if the driver was not really going all that fast and just clipped a raised seam in a curb line, or a slightly raised drain cap? Again, not saying that did happen, but we are all looking at this like he MUST have been going too fast and hit something.

BWhite, just added something about hearing from a dealer about hitting something while back draging with the wings extended could cause damage. That sound reasonable enough, not much to stop the wing form collapsing forward if backing into a fixed object. Easy fix could be, do not back drag with the wing extend. That should not be seen something to be held against Blizzard.

The link Chris gave on the V plow damage is the way I like to see things. Here is the damage, here is what caused it. After hiting a piece of 3/4" thick steel that was raised about 4" off the ground on a corned causing it to cut a hole in the moldboard. I think no matter how fast you were going tearing the plow mount off the front of a truck should be expect in that situation no matter what plow you are using.

Although I think this might have been another honest whole hearted attempt once again to show everybody how great the Blizzard product really is. I think it also should cause as all to ask more questions and to continue to follow the progress of the overall performance of the Blizzard product line.

Most people are giving feedback after only plowing just one or two snow events.(Pelican not included) I hope the rest of you proud Blizzard owner get to plow like heck all season. Then if you all could still say, that the Blizzard product line worked 150% better than what you had in the past, with the same dependablity and durability, that would truly be impressive. That is why I am on this site reading for hours on end.

I give huge props to Pelican for posting these pictures even after so many people have tried to give Blizzard a bad review without owning one. Mike Nelson's honesty and condor is very impressive and the mark of a true professional we can all learn a lesson or two from his handling of this situation.

[urethane dino]

Well said Ron. You summed up what I was trying to say, but you said it with alot more tact. Of course I was trying to stir up the nest a bit anyway.
Here is what I think about the 8611. The front frame section on the F 350 is the same as on a 450/550. So if someone is pushing weighing in at 15000 to 20000 lbs in a 550 I think that more bending of the wings and frames could happen. Its alot of leverage against a narrow push point. I too would like to see what was hit and at least get an idea of the speed.
I personally wont remove any of my current plows to install a new blizzard, but when the new truck comes, I am looking to install one. I agree that the 9' pro plus is a very stout plow. In fact that is my quandry to a point, my local western dealer is 5 min down the road from me vs 2 hrs each way to Jacks place, but I am willing to try it.
Dino

[NYRookie]

Mike, sorry to see anyone damage equipment but I would have liked to see the look on that guys face when he hit whatever it was he hit.omg :scramble :headwall :eek: I hope the seat was made of vinyl for easy cleanup.;) I will definatly look at Blizzards for my next plow.

[Lawngodfather]

Is it to late to see what the driver left on the dash or winsheild?

[Pelican]

What we didn't show was the stain on the driver's seat.....:wink

[Arc Burn]

Originally posted by Pelican
What we didn't show was the stain on the driver's seat.....:wink
Now i'm just gonna leave that one alone......Did he have a passenger....maybe his mind was elsewere:eek: :D

[Jerre Heyer]

O.K. Folks, Here goes.

This will officially be my first Snowplowing-Contractors post.

As Mike Nelson, Pro-Snow, his dealer Jack Larese, Pelican and countless others can tell you I've been a little busy since before Mike was to the shop to get his new ( at least it was ) sidewing and a ( USED 8611) Blizzard snowplow. Been hanging them " tin can " plows on all sorts of rigs from S10's and Toyota Tundras to the New 2004 F650 dumptrucks.

I've got a good Idea what happened with Mikes driver ( no not that ARC but good try). IMO to do that type of damage he had to have the plow angled to the truck on the side the wing took the hit. The wing was partially or all the way out and he cracked a ( curb, man hole, post, building ets. ) I didn't go back and check to see if the urethane was on the wing yet as Mike was putting it on but if it was you can be sure the ( object of impact ) was higher than the U edge. I'll bet the driver had a little head to glass impact in the cab when this was done.

Mike maybe you need to get him a race harness, Neck collar and helmet and enroll him in some indy driver schooling:burnout

Got a school here that cracked a 10" curb the same way with an 800 straight blade on an 97F350 and did some serious truck damage as they had a full spreader in the back. Plow functioned fine for the rest of the night. Curb was missing a big piece.

They called Monday to say they did the same thing with the 810 there running. In there works " it's a little tweaked but working fine so we'll bring it in after the holidays ". Maybe they should mark the curb......???????

Enough on this one. Mike hope the $5000.00 + cost didn't hurt too much:D Jerre

[Lawngodfather]

Another one for Dino, I thought about today.

Compare to adding wings, some add wings to 7½' to 9' plows.

I have plows that have wings on them and they make the plow 10'2" wide, that's a lot of plow.

So now you have something that does not give, I bet same situation, someone would have an Inop plow now.

[Lawngodfather]

Almost forgot, Hi Jerre

[speedracer241]

Looks like the gangs all here.

Welcome Jerre:waving

Mark K

[urethane dino]

Not true with the wings. Pro wings woul fold like a deck of cards if they hit anything staionary, or they will break away from the plow.
Box blade type wings are best used at low speeds. In fact anytime one is carrying snow, low speeds should be a first priority.
Whats amazing to me is that the damage was transfered to quite a few different components. So either there is a weakness in the entire system, or we really need to see what was hit and at what speed.
Dino

[mikegamb]

Originally posted by Lawngodfather
I would like to add this to my above post.

I guess I am on the band wagon

Just look at the plow pictured, it only damaged the wing, and a small spot on the main blade looks to be done by the wing bending back, that I am sure can be fixed with a "BFH."

The mount looks to of handled it well too, might only have small frame damage. I had a Western that ripped totally out of the frame from a car accident while plowing.


i agree that after seeing those pics my next plow is going to be a blizzard.i thought about the western pro plus and Vs,but the frame and mold board construction of the blizzards is the biggest and most well built design i have seen.just look at the truck mounting hardware.it bolts along a large area of the truck frame where my western is just bolted on the first 9 or 10 inches of frame.everytime i hit something with my western real hard. i cross my fingers before looking at the plow to make sure its atleast still on the truck.:D