? Deleted posts - message board liability?

[PROCUT1]

I dont post too much but im on here daily reading and I really like this site.

We all know about the couple of "other sites" and the mass amount of post deleting and editing that occurs which prompts many people to post here instead.

My question:

Why does that occur? Is there some type of liability against the site owner if there are certain things said on a topic.

Great examples are the SMG/Symbiot type threads. I agree that that topic has been beaten to hell but why would a site owner need to remove all references to those types of threads?

This is not a thread ragging on the other sites, as I frequent them too, but Im just curious what goes on behind the scenes to necessitate the large amount of policing that does not seem to occur here.

Joe

[wyldman]

The owner of the other site is paraniod,and he also like to be a control freak.He just pulls anything he wants.

Thats why we are all here......:D

[Pelican]

I can't speak for any other Board, but here at LTS we reserve the right to edit or remove posts. It's used as rarely as possible, but when we find a post that may be offensive, or is clearly meant to harass another member, we'll pull it. Also, we have rules regarding post content, if we find these rules have been violated, we may edit or remove a post as we see fit.

[BRL]

Well, now you see why this site was started :nodd Not sure if we stole the "No Spin" concept from Bill O'Reilly, or he from us?

Anyway, the only liability issue would be if a member posts a lie or copywrited material, and if such cases were discovered herethey would be removed immediately. Otherwise there is no liability issue with hosting the opinions of members.

The owner of PS, LS, AS, WS et al is strictly in the message board business to make money. Whereas, when Chuck started PS years ago it was with the purpose of providing a resource for fellow snow plowers to network with each other & hopefully help each other out in our endeavors. When it became clear that the the new ownership there wasn't interested in that goal, Chuck started this site for us. Thanks again Chuck & Chris! :salute

So in the effort to gain as much revenue as possible with those sites, any posts that say anything negative about any current or potential sponsors, or any other potential resources for those in the snow business that network in any way, are removed to keep those sponsors happy & to make sure members there only see that site hopefully. This is why he also won't remove memberships of those of us who have requested it, or members that never or ceased using the site long long ago, etc., so that the membership stats there are inflated to better appease the wants of sponsors. This why you see many fewer sponsors here, the policy here is if you owned or used a product & have an opinion on it, that opinion & experience is welcomed - whether it speaks postively or negatively of that particular product. So I feel that our sponsors are definitely of high quality & have a true desire to receive true feedback from their end users in order to improve their products & thereby improve our abilities to battle Mother Nature. Thank you again to all of our sponsors!! :salute

So in the case of SMG\Symbiot\John Allin threads being removed at those sites, my guess is the companies were, are, or could be sponsors., and he can't have anything negative posted about them to jeopardize that? :beatsme Also, John was made a moderator there a long time ago. Since he rarely, if ever, did any of the usual moderating type activities that the rest of us were doing I now assume this was simply further efforts to increase revenue by dazzling potential sponsors with the premiere leader & celebrity in the snow industry at the time. Now that the benefits of his presense in the industry have been cast in doubt, I'm not sure why posts exposing his actions would be pulled?

[PROCUT1]

Thanks for the replies.

Just going by some questionable PM that I received here and "over there" I just want to make sure Im being clear here.

This post is only asking a question about a subject that Im not familiar with and that is message board management.

I am in no way talking negative about any site or any board. Im a member of the other sites and I like them as well. Im purely making an observation which put a question in my mind that I wanted to get answered.

Im not starting any trouble here or anywhere, and not trolling to get people to trash talk the other sites, I think we're all more mature than that.

An example:

What if "COMPANY X" manufactured snow pushers and a bunch of us guys posted to a thread that basically said that "COMPANY X" snow pushers were garbage. If that company read the thread, would that be any kind of slander or anything to that effect that would open up the site owner or its members to any sort of liability? Or is it all freedom of speech?

[wyldman]

Here,you can tell it like it is.Look at the Blizzard threads.They are a sponsor,yet we don't pul any negative comments unless they are blatently out of line.

Over there,he has been known to pull\edit posts,and shut down threads if anything bad is said about a sponsors product.

[Pelican]

As long as we feel the member can back up his statements, then they are allowed to stand. If someone's post simply states ""X" brand sucks!" without any support to the statement, we'll most likely pull it, but if they elaborate on their personal experience with "X" brand, then it would probably be allowed to stand.

I'm not 100% clear on the liability exposure so I won't comment on that.

[derekbroerse]

I like being able to speak my mind. I try to behave, at least in the manner of stirring the pot, but I do enjoy a good debate. Frankly, I wouldn't say it if I didn't believe it... or I may say it is my opinion, or that I could be wrong but...

Over there, if anything goes into detail for an extended period, it gets shut down. Kind of annoying when there is a perfectly good debate going on. Usually people can disagree on one topic yet not take it so personally that it leads into the next. I like that.

As for items like the SMG scandal, I would like to think that we do not have dozens of liars on the forums... so if a company is really that bad I would definately want to know about it! Even though I am not involved in the scandal, for that reason I kinda resent it always disappearing before all the stories get out... it rubs me the wrong way that companies get away with such actions with seemingly no repercussions.

As for liability, I would say that everyone here in North America has the right to free speech, and therefore the right (write?) to type what they feel. If it is factual and can be backed up with hard evidence, then no one can sue for libel/slander/etc. no matter if it is spoken, typed online, or printed. There is a big difference between saying that Person J is a criminal vs saying Person J owes $xxxxxx.xx and has not paid and it is xxxxx days past due. The first version could only be used in such a phrase as "I think Person J is a criminal." because that is only an opinion, not an accusation.

[derekbroerse]

Here,you can tell it like it is.Look at the Blizzard threads.They are a sponsor,yet we don't pul any negative comments unless they are blatently out of line.

Over there,he has been known to pull\edit posts,and shut down threads if anything bad is said about a sponsors product.

On this note, I'd say if sponsors would like to rebut people's testimony on the performance of their product, that is their responsibility to do so, either in public forum or privately. I'd say publicly would look better on them to clear the air.

The owners of the forum are only providing a place for people to voice their opinions and should not be responsible for its content, unless it is racial/offensive/etc.

Personally, I think EVERY manufacturer would be well served to have one of their customer service reps visit these sort of sites on a regular basis, to answer questions, offer advice, tips etc. geared specifically towards their product. I think it would certainly bolster the public's image of the company, having someone there to help when there is a problem.

[wyldman]

On this note, I'd say if sponsors would like to rebut people's testimony on the performance of their product, that is their responsibility to do so, either in public forum or privately. I'd say publicly would look better on them to clear the air.

The owners of the forum are only providing a place for people to voice their opinions and should not be responsible for its content, unless it is racial/offensive/etc.

Personally, I think EVERY manufacturer would be well served to have one of their customer service reps visit these sort of sites on a regular basis, to answer questions, offer advice, tips etc. geared specifically towards their product. I think it would certainly bolster the public's image of the company, having someone there to help when there is a problem.

I agree,having the manufacturers here is great,but they gotta be able to take the heat.You will get guys who are upset,and have problems,and they gotta listen.Blowing stuff off as abuse,or saying they have never heard of the problem is unacceptable.A good manufacturer should be able to take the bad with the good,and make a better product from the information they recieve.

[Mark Oomkes]

I think it also has a lot to due with the membership and what the owner\administrator\mods will put up with the members. The caliber of the membership is way, way higher here than the dark side. I think for the most part the members are self-policing to a certain point because of this. Nobody here, puts up with some of the BS that goes on there. This goes back to running it as a business vs. a source of information or a resource. He will tolerate just about any idiot that registers just so the numbers are up there so he can charge more for sponsors, etc. Never mind the content (or lack of) of their posts. I know I (and a few others) almost always check the profile of a member I\they are going to respond to and take that into consideration. This info can tell me volumes.

Chris is correct about the sponsors\manufacturers as well. However, they need to be able to discern between obvious issues of abuse and bad designs\manufacturing flaws. And this is something we have all seen.

[4evergreenlawns]

Chris,

Well said and exact point I have been pushing. I would think FEEDBACK is very important to the overall perception of a MFG, it product line, and support. I know if I read or heard something about the serivce we provide to any of your clients I would be all over it making it right regardless of the situation. Perception directly impacts reputation in the market place. This applies to both how sponsors are view along with how the membership is viewed on any site leading back on topic.

I find it VERY interesting that a good percentage of the membership is registered in both placed here and there (LTS/********) me included. Most interesting thing I find is when members come here to moan about over there but yet there post count over there is higher in some cased double.

My point being I go where ever I can to get the information I deem valuable. I see it like this; You can get a burger at McD's or BK bottom line you are hungry. Yes, sometime the fries are cold or the pop is watered down but you have to eat. So why sould there be such a big surprise that one is managed differently from the other. Same thing that is going on between both places.

YES, hands down the membership at LTS has a much higher level of professional content but a huge number of people start out over there and end up over here. That tells you something as well. We can learn from this in that somehow either VIA seach engines, word of mouth, whatever, people get directed there and as a result of dual membership they end up getting redirected here.

Chuck Smith is so far above and beyond the antics/politic/goals of Sean Adams you can hardly compare the two. For those of us that can remember back to little thinks like Chuck's Snow Plowing Handbook, the the original Snowplowing-Contractor forum where this all started we can understand why/what Chuck is in this for and that is the betterment of the industry, sharing information, and helping others do better.

Ron G

[John DiMartino]

This site is the benchmark to which all others are judged,IMO. I feel this way because the members are knowledgeable,helpful and courtious.The owner/admin Chuck and Chris Smith are all of the above,and will not subcome to the pressure placed by anyone to falsify the truth,whether it be good or bad.The truth gets spoken on this board,we do not edit factual information unless it voilated the posting guidelines,even if it can hurt the reputation of a company that may currently or potentially sponsor this site. Finally,both Chuck and Mods here enforce the guidelines of this site firmly,while being fair,and participating as needed to keep things running civil,and smooth. The "other" site is so full of censorship and deleted posts,you wouldnt be able to trust anything there anyway.

[4evergreenlawns]

John,

Very well said, being a member at LTS from the start and for over three years even after having some of my post (well deserved) edited, I would have to agree 100% about allowing factual content and the truth to be posted at any cost.

I truly hope my post is not being taken out of context in anyway. I think I am supporting all that is being said here, Right? If not I want to be clear about my point.

[Chuck Smith]

First I would like to thank everyone for their kind words. I have told the story many times over the years, and I will tell it briefly one more time. A very long time ago, (around 1998) when I first got a computer, I found a very small and new "discussion forum", that was actually a guest book for a landscape company (Lawnicure). I signed the book, and got in on a little discussion. The guy that owned the company (Chuck Keough) thought landscapers needed a place to talk shop, share ideas and info, and brag about equipment (not in that order, LOL). So this guy e mailed everyone that signed his guestbook, and told us that he was starting a real BB (Bulletin Board) for us. In that mail he asked if anyone had any ideas for any topics, to e mail him. I did, and told him I think he should have one for plowing, and one for Chevy trucks. He replied that he made the forums, and that they were mine to manage. I was shocked, but gladly took on the job. So I did all I could to tell people about the site. They were the Lawnicure Forums for a short time, and then they exploded into a place called Hall Of Forums. There were a few key players back then that made it all happen, and held it all together. Back then it was Chuck, Eric ELM, myself, and Dino. Me and Dino took care of the Plowing Forums, and the Chevy truck forums, and Eric and Chuck took care of the green forums. We did it because we wanted to share info, and learn from each other. None of us got paid a dime. We took time away from our families (like many of us do here surfing the Forums) because we quickly became addicted to helping others succeed. We all helped each other shorten our learning curves. We told each other about new products and techniques as fast as they came out. Much faster than any trade magazine ever could (Which is still the case here).

Like I said, we never got paid, and never expected to. We gained a ton of knowledge, and learned from other's experiences. Nothing as far as experiences was censored. It shouldn't have been and we knew it. We were sharing real world experience. We debated like crazy (God knows I spent hours arguing with Dino in IM and e mails about Meyer vs. Western LOL). We had fun, and learned at the same time.

As the forums grew, they moved to a new place. ********. The plowing forums were there, along with the truck forums, and a ton more. There were few sponsors, and only for the green side of things. Common knowledge to many here is that Chuck K was a somewhat absentee owner. He was hard to find when we needed help. He decided to break the plowing away from the green side, and started ********. He took all the Members of ********, and copied them to ********. That was the easiest thing to do, copy the database, that way all the plowing posts would be transferred too. No one would have to sign up there, etc. So guys that lived in Florida for instance, were made Members (and they still are to this day I bet).

He made me an Administrator at ********, and Eric Elm an Administrator at ********. He let me do whatever I wanted with PS. Things ran smoothly. We never had a problem, and we had few sponsors. The costs associated with running the sites was high, because they were active. VERY active. They crashed server after server. Chuck had a lot on his plate, and decided to sell ********, and ********. The new owner focused on building up LS, and left us alone at PS. For a while..... then he focused on PS. We (The Moderators here) did not agree with what he wanted to do there. There was some discussion, and we all ended up leaving. (There are a bunch of rumors and lies floating around about that whole situation).

The point is we ended up here. We had planned on leaving if things did not get better there. Steve had already gone and set up HeavyEquipmentForums.com before we all left. He planned on staying on at PS, as he thought there was no conflict with his new site. I had been trying to set up Forums of some sort on my site for years with no luck (On the software side of things Front Page sucks sometimes). So I had given up. I wanted mine to be for a tight knit group of guys. Like a private place by invite only. When it all came to a head at PS, it was easy for me to set up Forums on my site. I hadd been a Moderator for 3 years on AOL in the Autos area (Try Moderating the Harley Owners group!). I had been writing a newsletter for years. I had a bunch of magazine articles published. Everyone in the industry knew me. I was VERY active in SIMA. I wrote The Snowplowing Handbook (the FIRST book on plowing the industry ever saw). It just seemed natural for me to have my own Forums. In my mind, it was like I had them all along anyway. Chuck K. always told me to do whatever I wanted, to treat the Forums as my own, and I did. So by coming here, it was like I never missed a beat.

I run these Forums just like I have always run Forums. Nothing different. They are not here to make me money. The first year or two they cost me money, and truth be told I never dropped a plow in those two years. I have not plowed since 2002. But, I keep the forums going anyway, because I love snow, and the equipment used to fight it. To pay for the site, I am an affiliate for JC Whitney, Northern Tool, and Eastwood (amongst others). That means that when you follow a link from the top of this page, I make a percentage from any sale generated. It doesn't cost you any more, I just get a small cut from the companies. I also sell LTS shirts and decals (though not many).

I also have sponsors (Polar Edge Blizzard, Rhomar, and Jerre's) who pay a flat yearly fee to sponsor the site. Do I want more, not really. I would like to thank the Sponsors though, because they help keep this site up, and because they do care, which is why they sponsor.

Western and Fisher participate in a thread every year (they call it "sponsoring a thread") which allows the Members to interact directly with factory reps and engineers. For that I thank them, as we all appreciate the opportunity.

Anytime I am contacted about sponsorship, and it looks like it is a go, I remind the potential sponsor that they have to take the negative comments with the positive ones. I am not going to blindly defend their product.

To me that is the same as lying. SO we have the rule here that if you don't have first hand knowledge of product, then don't bash it. Plain and simple. If someone has a bad experience with ANY company in the industry, then they can tell us about it here. Representatives from those companies can come here anytime and dispute comments made. Most do not. Bad choice on their part, but that is their choice.

This post is getting long. So in closing I just want to say that this site is here to promote growth in the industry, and to promote professionalism, and for networking with your peers. Hopefully we all learn, share knowledge and experiences, and have fun at the same time. This site is not here to put food on my table. If I can make enough to pay the bills, great.

Like I said as far as sponsors go, I would rather have the few you see up top now, than 20 postage stamp size banners that I scroll right past when I visit a site.

A BIG thanks to EVERYONE for being a part of the best thing to happen to the industry since power angling! LOL.

Oh, and to stay on topic, what people post here is their OPINIONS. As far as I know OPINIONS are protected by Freedom of Speech.

~Chuck

[wyldman]

Very well put Chuck.Here's to all the hard work you do (and have done). :drinkup

[Chuck Smith]

I think it also has a lot to due with the membership and what the owner\administrator\mods will put up with the members. The caliber of the membership is way, way higher here than the dark side. I think for the most part the members are self-policing to a certain point because of this. Nobody here, puts up with some of the BS that goes on there. :::::snip

I know I (and a few others) almost always check the profile of a member I\they are going to respond to and take that into consideration. This info can tell me volumes.



Believe me, when we find a post by a Member that we think is going to cause problems, we use every tool (and there are many) at our disposal. That is the great thing about having a great team of Mods. It is also the great thing about having a great Membership. They like to PM us and help prevent problems too. We nip most problems in the bud. One thing I do here, that I had tried to do in a "previous life", is Moderate all new registrations. Some people think that is a bad idea, but it cuts down on sooooooo much BS. Anyone can join and read, but I want to check them out as much as I think is necessary before I approve Membership and let them post. Of course some new "Members" (read; trolls) slip through the cracks, and good Members have bad days, it's understandable. We generally use the 3 strikes rule, depending on what happens to cause a "strike". You get a 1 week suspension, then a 2 week (or whatever we decide), the third time you are gone. With 3500+ "active" Members, I can count on two hands (or damn near) the number of people that have been banned permanently. I am sure some visit after being banned under a new name, or as guests..... but they know they need to keep thier fingers off the keyboard when they return, or we will find them out, and ban them again. Sometimes we can snag them on IP alone, just by them visiting. We have a smart Membership here, and alot of you guys are human bloodhounds, LOL.

I try to keep the Member roster up to date. Once a year, I delete Memberships of those who have not visited in over a year, and who have never posted. I have never deleted a Member that has made a post.

~Chuck

[Honest Mike]

CHUCK, VERY WELL SAID!!! :waving This is by far my favorite forum I am a member of, and I am a member of quite a few! I feel right at home here! Mike :waving

[GMC Driver]

Nicely stated, and as a newer member I would like to state that this is the most informative and effective discussion forum I have seen, bar none. This is just MY opinion.

Thanks to Chuck and the mods for making LTS what it is!

[Chuck Smith]

Something else I want to add. I have been told I am a fool for allowing people to "Advertise" in posts, profiles, and signatures. I think it benefits us all allowing them to do so. Isn't that a big part of networking? I make the product, you use the product, let's discuss the product? You are looking for a product I sell, why should I not be able to tell you (and others) that I sell it? Don't we all benefit that way? (Though my pockets don't, but as I said, I am not in this to get rich or put food on my table).

That is a big thing on other sites. No advertising. Some people go overboard on what they consider advertising though. Some even censor, and read PM's to "protect their interests".

~Chuck

[Chuck Smith]

As far as the Mods go, there is no way I could hold this all together alone. Last year at Jerre's I presented them all with framed "Certificates of Appreciation". I think I have the perfect team. Thanks guys!

~Chuck

From left to right; Alan, Chris, myself, Jerre, Johnny D., BRL, Steve.

[Honest Mike]

Chuck, I just want to say that I truly do appreciate all the work you do here, and also all the work that it took to get us all here, I think we all appreciate it. I feel though that just sitting here, typing these words truly isnt good enough, I want to do something more, I would like to make a donation to help support the forum, and to help keep it going. Can I do this? Where would I send it? I would need an address. Please reply and let me know what and where to send. :waving Mike

[SNO]

Great story Chuck,

I often wondered what I didnt know.

Now I know a bit more.

Your hard work and time is evident.

I've never met you but your work tells me plenty.

A great guy for sure!

:notworthy

[capt.craig]

A big thanks Chuck, moderators and members you all have helped me make some important decisions in the business and got me out of several problems that would have been costly down time or customer communications. Thanks again like a one big family looking out for each other Craig

[PROCUT1]

Thanks for all the replies.... Its nice to see this thread stay right on topic and actually answer my questions.....Very professional forum

[Mark Oomkes]

It is sort of strange to see one stay on topic 100%, isn't it?

[stuvecorp]

Thanks for the site (wish I would have found it years ago!). It is nice to have a place where it seems people are concerned and pass information along. I enjoy looking at the projects and shop stuff also. Keep up the good work.

[backdragon]

Heres a big hack yea (pg 13)

First site I have been to ,Where somebody has not had their hand out for so much for doing so little .So if they were not connected with threads. would they still be related talk to everyone latter . Have to get Grand ma off to work so I can sleep tonight

shiney side up & keep your knees together

backdragon:usa .

[snow warrior]

Thanks for all the replies.... Its nice to see this thread stay right on topic and actually answer my questions.....Very professional forum

Yes it is . Thats why I came over here. This is a great site, another thanks to chuck and chris and all the mods......great job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bandit]

Chuck
A big thanks to You and the Mods. for all You do and have done.
This Thread explained a lot of the questions I had on the different forums , I don't often post , Because I don't believe in posting just to watch My # go up. But I am all ways here reading. Regarding the "other place" , I have had a Negative thread/post ? about a certain Company I was reading disappear on Me while I was reading it ??.
I agree too ,This is the Most Professional Forum of the several I follow. I do have respect for the Companies that answer here in the forums , good or bad about there products ,and are looking for our suggestions, and My Purchasing $$$ will show that, the other companies just don't get it.
Thanks for giving Us a place to Post
Bob
sorry for any errors 4:30 AM :scramble

[4evergreenlawns]

So here it is, a perfect example of the misleading informtion.

SPECIAL THANKS TO THE MEMBERS AND SPONSORS WHO HAVE MADE ************* THE #1 SNOW & ICE INDUSTRY FORUM

As I am reading and posting on a thread about Donweaster/Truckcraft spreaders Mr. Adams posted a reply with this exactly in his signature. Seeing how I am a very curious person suspicious of most everyone (being italian and all) I just had to ask? Now to me this is clearly a statement smacking of malic.

Sean,

Nice seing the owner posting. Since this is the first time I have ever seen your signature posted I was just wondering????

Where can I find this list showing ranking of industry forums that reported this one to be #1?? Furthermore, by what authority are the publishers of this list vested? SIMA maybe?? I am guessing there would be a list ranking some of the other industry forums and it woul dbe interesting information.

Great to know this site is #1 at any rate.

Thanks for all your hard work.

Ron G.

Lets see what happen. My guess is it will be deleted FAST like.

[digger242j]

I also sell LTS shirts and decals (though not many).



Yeah, well I asked for hats... :shades

:waving

[PSDFordMan]

So here it is, a perfect example of the misleading informtion.

SPECIAL THANKS TO THE MEMBERS AND SPONSORS WHO HAVE MADE ************* THE #1 SNOW & ICE INDUSTRY FORUM


:funnypost

[4evergreenlawns]

Yeah, well I asked for hats... :shades

:waving


If NO ONE is buying the ****s of decal why have hats???

BTW I just ordered a few shirt and decals. I am sure Chuck love all the nice kind words, but buy a few shirts even if you give them to you kids, wife, G/f, side action whatever.

[digger242j]

If NO ONE is buying the ****s or decal why have hats???


Because, I wear a hat practically every time I go outside, and unlike a shirt, it won't be hidden beneath my coat all winter.

[Pickering Snow]

Digger

Good idea on the hats i agree except this time unlike the shirts i would suggest to Chuck to get a logo and design that every one agrees on then at that point being the buss man i am i would ask for pre orders if the demand is there great then the hats are ordered and prepaid that way there not just sitting around. Iam a hat freak has well may have something to do with the crop circle i have starting in the middle of my head on top however for the sake of not being stuck with unsold goods i personally would make sure i had a couple dozen presold and paid for before i even bothered going to the Screener.

Ron lol on the Side action would you be eludling to a poss trailer park queen i have on one of my jobs she always wants her drive plowed which isnt part of my contract just the main park roads i suppose when she winks at me if she would put her teeth back in i might consider dropping my Plow/\

On Topic Chuck has created one of the most proffesional sites out there he also has created a brotherhood of people from all over the states and friendships that cannot be matched. I remember the days on the darkside and will never forget the weekend in nov of 03 when we got a second chance at a real site and iam very greatful for that.

[digger242j]

I didn't mean to hijack this into a hat thread, but as long as we're on the subject...

Fred, just to be clear, I'm talking baseball caps, not "Mad Bombers". :)

4evergreenlawns, you may have a point. If hats were a profit center, Sean would be hawking them.

I just have to add, that I haven't paid for a hat in probably 25 years. the last one I paid for was when I bought a few dozen with my own company name on them and gave them to guys on the job site. I don't think I ever saw one of them being worn, although one guy told me "Thanks, I can give this to my buddy that collects hats"...

That having been said, I'd buy one from here.

(I'll bet that if you zoom in on this one, pimp it has a John Deere logo on it... )

:)

[smallplowguy]

1. Hey guys I have been following this thread and agree its in my opinion the best and friendlyist site out there. Thanks Chuck and everyone who made it and keeps it going.

2. I agree with Pickering Snow about getting a nice logo and pre ordering the hats. I'll take 2.

3. 4evergreenlawns I saw your thread over there and the first thought is finally some asked it and second tought being this will be deleted. I'm suprised he anwsered you. Watch it though he might ban your IP and not tell you or even put up there you've been banned. It happened to ME. I think I had the most posts deleted over there. As the first author of "calendar girls" I just copied from his green site and posted in the white site but mine were removed as I was as well. No notice!!

Thanks Chuck and everyone again you are the best and #1 In my book.

[4evergreenlawns]

Just wanted to get this up for those watching this on the otehr side as I am sure it will be gone and so will I. However, I have saved it and I plan on sending it to each and every sponsor should I get booted. I think someone has been hitting the glass pipe one too many times.

"After all, I do agree with you Mr. Adams that this is the most subjective method to support the statement #1 in the industry.

"#1 in time users stay on the site, it is #1 in regard to overall content, #1 in search engine content ranking, it is #1 in regard to unique page views, #1 in regard to hits, #1 in regard to TrustGague, and quite a few others....."

As I do not post much I do visit and from those visits I think there are a few #1 you failed to list.

#1 for Threads being deleted. - I have watched several threads I followed just go missing.

#1 for post being deleted- Same as above I have returned to see a post I just read the day before gone.

as for TrustGuage what and where does this come from?? Unique page views, I am not sure but the pages seem the same as many other forums I visit. Time logged on well I have added to this as there have been time when I logged on and left to use the restroom abd stayed logged on and never knew I was helping making the site #1.

At least is it nice for the sponsors to know they are getting what they paid for and that is what keep the site up and running so great job and thank you for taking the time to help me understand."

Ron G.

[Honest Mike]

Guys, not for nothing, but I think we are spending a "little" too much time talking about THAT forum over on THIS forum! Lets not worry about what goes on over there, we know what goes on, that is why we are all over here! I see this thread getting shut down very soon if it keeps going in the direction its going, thats just an opinion however...:wink Mike :waving

[digger242j]

Guys, not for nothing, but I think we are spending a "little" too much time talking about THAT forum over on THIS forum! Lets not worry about what goes on over there, we know what goes on, that is why we are all over here! I see this thread getting shut down very soon if it keeps going in the direction its going, thats just an opinion however...:wink Mike :waving


Good point, Mike.

How many hats do you want? :grinz

[Chuck Smith]

Go to Google and type in "snow plowing discussion forums" and see what comes up. :D

I will look into hats for the Erie GTG.

~Chuck

[4evergreenlawns]

Chuck,

Thank you for undersatnding my port was not about make a big deal of what goes on over there but just the kind of spin that make this such a different place. Anyone that is willing to totaly ignore what is going on around them sooner or later gets passed up and that is just basic business.


Digger and Mike,

Great point guys. What hat I am going to wear today is much more thought inspiring.

Ron G.

[JGresko]

I have visted the "other site" and just by reading you can tell this is a more professional site with a better atmosphere. Their is only two sites that i rank high in professionalism, they are LTS & DTR(Diesel Truck Resource), I have gotten alot of information from this site snowplowing related or not. Chuck I also like your Chevy page, I started to read it and it is giving me alot of information for my decision on a Chevy truck. This in one of the first site I click on in my favorites everyday to come and read.

Thanks Chuck,Chris, & Mods for a great forum.:waving

Jeff

[jimbob]

I have visted the "other site" and just by reading you can tell this is a more professional site with a better atmosphere. Their is only two sites that i rank high in professionalism, they are LTS & DTR(Diesel Truck Resource), I have gotten alot of information from this site snowplowing related or not. Chuck I also like your Chevy page, I started to read it and it is giving me alot of information for my decision on a Chevy truck. This in one of the first site I click on in my favorites everyday to come and read.

Thanks Chuck,Chris, & Mods for a great forum.:waving

Jeff

You do know that ALOT of members here participate over there daily and help to make it what it is?
The man over there just knows how to make a business successful and still help people. There is nothing wrong with making money is there? We are all entrepenuers?
The forum over there is growing in leaps and bounds with the help of alot of members from here

[Mark Oomkes]

jimbob, welcome to LTS.

Have you read this entire thread? Nobody said it was wrong to make money, the problem comes in when money is accepted and then information is censored or deleted because some manufacturers don't want to hear about problems and\or don't want problems to become public.

It might be growing by leaps and bounds just looking at posts and threads, but take a look at the quality of the info, not the quantity.

Disclaimer for the following. This is not to insult any 1 or 2 truck outfits or any younger members.

IMO, it seems like PS has at least 1 question a day like: What kind of plow should I put on my Ranger or I just started plowing yesterday, how do I get into commercial work or What would you charge for this lot, I'm in NW Territories of Canada and the reply comes for NY city. Obviously these are slight exaggerations, but you get the gist of what I am saying. Then there are a couple idiots that start posting pics of who knows what that have absolutely nothing to do with plowing and joking about living in the Middle East. You just don't see that kind of baloney here. I can think of only 3 (really 2) members that have been banned here at LTS. There might be more, but not many. How many young kids who don't have parents watching over them have been banned over there? They start right off by pissing everybody off and then apologize or are shut down for a few days and then straighten out. It's a totally different caliber of people over there than here despite the few members that go back and forth.

And as has already been stated, PS wouldn't be what it almost is now if it hadn't been for Chuck and many of the mods\members that are here now.

Put another way, Chuck doesn't like that PS is mentioned here and would rather not, but he accepts the fact that it is there and some of us go back and forth and post at both sites and can even talk about other sites here. Just try mentioning LTS over there once and see what happens. Sean won't even acknowledge or let it be acknowledged that there are other forums, isn't that sort of strange if not downright unhealthy?

[jimbob]

Thanks for the welcome Mark:waving Yes I have read the entire thread. I see people blasting away at sponsors in the sections over there. "I hate Boss..." etc. Maybe thats the way it was at one time, but I see alot of critiqueing of sponsors now.
Some people on these forums have gotten so serious minded and delusions of self importance. Relax and have a little fun. We just push snow. Push it this way and push it that way. It not like we are trying to help somebody fly the space shuttle or do surgery. We are actually helping people take our jobs.
Anyway I am glad they are more relaxed over there and don't baby sit as much.
I don't have anything bad to say about this forum either.

[wyldman]

Put another way, Chuck doesn't like that PS is mentioned here and would rather not, but he accepts the fact that it is there and some of us go back and forth and post at both sites and can even talk about other sites here. Just try mentioning LTS over there once and see what happens. Sean won't even acknowledge or let it be acknowledged that there are other forums, isn't that sort of strange if not downright unhealthy?

You can't mention anything over there,it's all censored.Even many of the good peoples usernames are censored,as they have left,and come here.Sean is afraid they may tell the truth,or spread the word there are better sites out there.Paranoia.

[wyldman]

Thanks for the welcome Mark:waving Yes I have read the entire thread. I see people blasting away at sponsors in the sections over there. "I hate Boss..." etc. Maybe thats the way it was at one time, but I see alot of critiqueing of sponsors now.
Some people on these forums have gotten so serious minded and delusions of self importance. Relax and have a little fun. We just push snow. Push it this way and push it that way. It not like we are trying to help somebody fly the space shuttle or do surgery. We are actually helping people take our jobs.
Anyway I am glad they are more relaxed over there and don't baby sit as much.
I don't have anything bad to say about this forum either.

While you do hear about some problem with products over there,if it gets to be a serious issue,it disappears quickly.Around here,it gets left up,and sorted out.Lets find a solution to the problem,even if it involves some bad press in the mean time.If you can't take the heat,don't build or sell a product in the first place.

People on this site do take things very seriously.It's our bread and butter.I need to put food on the table,and put a roof over my head,not just plow for beer money,or low ball somebody else.We have a serious group of professionals here,who come here to talk snow,and are quite serious about it.We are not helping people take our jobs (there are lots to go around),we are just helping each other,and the industry as a whole.The more knowledgeable we are,the more we stand above our competition,and we will eliminate the lowballers.We also need to learn how to educate our clients,so they are better informed,and better understand what we are doing,and what we are charging.

We are actually quite relaxed here as well,and do keep an eye on things.We don't really need to babysit much,as it's a different crowd.Once and a while,we do have a joker show up,but they soon learn to change,or they disappear.

[JGresko]

I noticed that alot of the stuff is censored over there, the only thing that i can say i do on that website is post on there welding forums thats about it. I hardly even post on there just questions here and there. Its fine that their is alot of members here that jump back and forth between site,i found this site first and this is the one i like the most, Chuck & the mods respect the freedom of speech of the members unless it gets to out of hand or just not suited to be on the site.


Jeff

[jimbob]

These are Private forums so freedom of speech does not apply.
I guess the owner of the forum thinks it is serious business and his bread and butter. Maybe that why he doesn't want you to run off the people who pay his bills and the sights bills? Would you say any old BS to your customers? DO you let you employees say just any thing to your customers? "Hey lady, I think you are fat!" I don't think so. You don't want to run your customer off. This forum doesn't put food on your table because it makes no money for you--unless you are here to learn how to run your business. If you already know how to run your business then you are just wasting what could be productive time.
The owner of this forum obviously doesn't want to make money or doesn't know how to make money in the forum business. Maybe he just wants to make friends and can't separate business from friendship? Whatever, really none of my business and everybody has different priorities --wants and needs.
I think the other site does a great balancing job of pleasing the members and keeping the sponsors happy. Must be because of all the traffic and the great many people joining daily. It is a money maker and this site isn't(from what I can see of the few sponsors visible) How many of us would run our Plowing businesses like that?

[atgreene]

Jimbob, I respectfully disagree.

When a forum refuses to allow information that may limit the popularity of a product because that product is a sponsor, I feel that is wrong. An open and honest discussion is what we have here, and that is a goal more noble than riches.

Sometimes credibility and respect amongst ones peers is worth more than a large profit. And that my friend, is what Chuck and the moderators here have.

[wyldman]

These forums aren't private,they are public.

The owner of this forum is not running it to make money,but to offer a service for people in this industry,where they can get together and share information,and UNBIASED opinions.

There is a difference between running off the people who pay the bills,and telling it like it is.Over there,If someone complains about a product,it seems to get swept under the rug,and disappears if a serious discussion follows.What good is that ? If that's the case,why have any user input ? Just run ads,as that's all it becomes.All you see is the good,not the bad.

Do a search on some of the recent Blizzard discussions,or SMG.Would that stuff fly over there ? I think not.It's not bashing,but it needs to be told,so we all learn about the product,and make it better.

I've said enough.........obviously you are blind...... :beatsme

[Pickering Snow]

Jimbob

Dont know how to take your comments or digs i should say , no need to question the sites owner on his choice to not have a ton of garbage on the top of the site. The Sponsors who are here a good quality companys who can take the ins and outs of there products.

Let me introduce you to myself self and explain we dont care what happens elsewere on other sites and your comment about this board being a waste of time because of the lack of sponsors let me be the first Moderator to let you know if you dont like it here dont let the the door hit ya on your way out!!!!

[John DiMartino]

Jimbob,to back up what the others are saying,your off to a good start 3 posts,and your degrading the owner of this site,telling us how great it is over there,and telling us how our site should be run.So far you have added nothing to the site,but you've ruffled a few feathers.Consider yourself warned,if you continue to post in the manner of your first 3 posts, you wont be here long.

[Ecurb]

This site is one of the better on the net...ole guy here that does not allways agree with some of the young ones....but nobody is disrespectfull. Great site. I found this one while hurt and surfing on the other site:waving Yah Probaly wished i had stayed on the dark side LOL

[Ecurb]

These are Private forums so freedom of speech does not apply.
I guess the owner of the forum thinks it is serious business and his bread and butter. Maybe that why he doesn't want you to run off the people who pay his bills and the sights bills? Would you say any old BS to your customers? DO you let you employees say just any thing to your customers? "Hey lady, I think you are fat!" I don't think so. You don't want to run your customer off. This forum doesn't put food on your table because it makes no money for you--unless you are here to learn how to run your business. If you already know how to run your business then you are just wasting what could be productive time.
The owner of this forum obviously doesn't want to make money or doesn't know how to make money in the forum business. Maybe he just wants to make friends and can't separate business from friendship? Whatever, really none of my business and everybody has different priorities --wants and needs.
I think the other site does a great balancing job of pleasing the members and keeping the sponsors happy. Must be because of all the traffic and the great many people joining daily. It is a money maker and this site isn't(from what I can see of the few sponsors visible) How many of us would run our Plowing businesses like that?

Your way off BUD. I am not a real fan of dodges and am on the fence with blizzard but never have been attacked from any member here....i have the old way too do thinks and it gets heated sometimes but again its never abusive......maybe go back too your favortie site. lots of good honest ship here...stir the pot but you wont rattle this place....too many friends..........:eek:

[Alan]

Jimbob, you have managed to PO three mods now. If things are so great over there by all means, go there, stay there. Chuck runs this because he enjoys it. I'm not sure why that is hard to comprehend, but your opinions on the owner are not going to be tolerated.

Chuck Smith is one of the nicest guys going. That's lot more than can be said about your lying, sniveling hero over on your site. You can tell him I said so too.

Your hero made a bunch of comments about us being too "heavy handed" for his kinder, gentler site. It won't take much of an excuse for me to show you just what that means.

[Pelican]

jimbob, there are only two people who would be as familiar with the profit structure at the other site as you seem to be. I'm sure you know who they are.

I did a little snooping around at the other site, you've raised my suspicions. The only jimbob registered there registered on 04-19-2001, yet he has failed to make a single post. It seems as though the jimbob there is one of those phantom members we keep hearing about. In fact, of the members I checked on that page, nearly all of them have been registered for over a year yet have made no posts.

You're posting style here jimbob is suspiciously familiar. Take a look at our rules page, there's a link at the bottom of the page. If, after you've reviewed our rules you wish to contribute to our Board, then feel free to join us. But, if your agenda is self promotion as I suspect it to be, then don't bother. At the other site your posts would have been pulled by now and you'd be banned, I'm sure you're VERY familiar with that practice.

[Chuck Smith]

This forum doesn't put food on your table because it makes no money for you--unless you are here to learn how to run your business. If you already know how to run your business then you are just wasting what could be productive time.
The owner of this forum obviously doesn't want to make money or doesn't know how to make money in the forum business.

You said you read this whole thread, but it doesn't seam that you did. If you read this whole thread you would see that I am not in the Forum "Business". This is not a business, was never meant to be a business, and never will be one. I am here because I enjoy talking to my peers, and sharing information, and I want to see the industry move forward as a whole.

You might note that my signature says "Pay it Forward" not PAY ME.

I guess I am a fool for volunteering with SIMA and helping create the Certified Snow Professional designation, and sitting on the Board of Governors... I never got paid, in fact it cost me. Surely it was foolish of me to consult on 3 of the SIMA training videos. I never got paid. Definitely foolish for speaking at the SIMA Symposium in Denver, I never got paid. I just wasted my time. I guess I am a fool for writing numerous articles for Snow Business magazine, because I never got paid. All the old articles I wrote for The Landsculptor, never saw a dime. Why is it so hard to grasp that there are people who want to help others and seek nothing in return? Enough of me tooting my own horn. You clearly just don't get it, and you are headed for the door as fast as you came in.

As far as your "wasting productive time" comment, then you must be here to learn, either that or help promote PS over here, in effect, using my policy about being able to discuss what you want, even if it means the competition, against me. Unlike your favorite site that has to use the auto censor to block out any mention of any of my web sites. Oh, and your comments will stay here, no chance of them being edited, long after you are gone. You are welcome to stay too, but that is your choice. You just seem to be off to a bad start.

And I sincerely thank you all for your kind words.

And I want to add I have no animosity toward anyone for visiting PS. You guys can go where you want. I expect it. Even if you only get a small piece of valuable info from a source, then it is worth it sometimes.

~Chuck

[John Banks]

Hey jimbob, why did you remove so many of my posts over at the other site? They were truthfull eperiences that obviously impacted not just myself, but many contractors. That's fine though, since there are many copies to go around.

As for membership over there, it's easy to build a membership list if you have enough time and can create enough names, or combinations of letters and numbers. Any monkey can do that.

Like Steve pointed out, your style is familiar...

One last thing, the guys and gals here, owners, mods and everyone else, I wouldn't want to be without them. As Fred said, it's a brotherhood. Something you guys won't ever understand.

[Pickering Snow]

My Dad always use to tell me to sleep on something before passing judgement so i did .


It seems Jimbob went back to Walton's mountain to tell Dumbbob and Johnboy what happen's here and thats ok .

One cannot benifet from a product in this industry without feedback so many things have been discussed here good and bad that have made people make the right choices for there Buss. Iam glad Chuck has stuck to his guns on sponsors and allowing us to beable to discuss the good and bad of a product.


I go back to the weekend of Nov 03 it was a weekend that changed the whole industry standard on message boards IMO like the movie Field of dreams Chuck has built it and people have come i can make a promise and back it up if tomarrow all the above sponsors went away Chuck could run one Big LTS logo across the top has just has the poeple have come so would the money ness to keep this board up :wink

[Chris Smith]

Ok...I read, I thought, now I'll put my two cents in.

BillyJoeJimBobSean seems to have a warped view of success. Obviously he thinks it's all about money. I'll put my Mommy hat on now since his parents didn't give him this lecture.

Not all things in life that bring you a great amount of joy are about money and financial success. Sweetie, there are things that mean more....honesty, personal integrity and a willingness to help others will be the things that people remember about you long after you are gone. Inflated membership numbers, censorship and a general Big Brother attitude is the downfall of anyone. This forum is about sharing, helping others and fellowship. Hit a church(or pick the religion of your choice!) on Sunday you might learn these things. If you keep your eye on the goal (financial, that is) you are going to miss some really great things along the way. Life is about relationships...not about bragging about what a success you are. Like they say, the most successful people in life do not have to remind everyone that they are. You can blame your personality flaws on your generation or you can overcome them..your choice. Please don't use LTS as your forum for self-promotion. You have many other "successful" forums for you to use.

My Mommy speak is over....have a great day!

With Love, Hugs and Kisses
Chris Smith

[Mark Oomkes]

I wonder if I can get banned at PS by what I say here. :confused:

Well, jimbob, I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt with some explanation. Apparently it wasn't worth my time or the bandwidth. Funny how every time Sean, or should I say jimbob, refers to the moneymaking potential of his forums, he\you are always crying about not making any or just breaking even or some BS like that. Now he\you are over here talking about how it supports him\you.

I really like the personal attacks made at Chuck. You don't have any factual info to address, so you attack him personally with 'he must not be able to make money at the forum business'. That tells me something right there.

Thanks for your valuable input on this forum. I think it's about time to go back and censor your 'Non private forum where Freedom of Speech does not apply'.

PS Funny how he checked in this morning but made no reply.

PPS Nicely put, 'Mom'. :nodd

[jimbob]

You said you read this whole thread, but it doesn't seam that you did. If you read this whole thread you would see that I am not in the Forum "Business". This is not a business, was never meant to be a business, and never will be one. I am here because I enjoy talking to my peers, and sharing information, and I want to see the industry move forward as a whole.

You might note that my signature says "Pay it Forward" not PAY ME.

I guess I am a fool for volunteering with SIMA and helping create the Certified Snow Professional designation, and sitting on the Board of Governors... I never got paid, in fact it cost me. Surely it was foolish of me to consult on 3 of the SIMA training videos. I never got paid. Definitely foolish for speaking at the SIMA Symposium in Denver, I never got paid. I just wasted my time. I guess I am a fool for writing numerous articles for Snow Business magazine, because I never got paid. All the old articles I wrote for The Landsculptor, never saw a dime. Why is it so hard to grasp that there are people who want to help others and seek nothing in return? Enough of me tooting my own horn. You clearly just don't get it, and you are headed for the door as fast as you came in.

As far as your "wasting productive time" comment, then you must be here to learn, either that or help promote PS over here, in effect, using my policy about being able to discuss what you want, even if it means the competition, against me. Unlike your favorite site that has to use the auto censor to block out any mention of any of my web sites. Oh, and your comments will stay here, no chance of them being edited, long after you are gone. You are welcome to stay too, but that is your choice. You just seem to be off to a bad start.

And I sincerely thank you all for your kind words.

And I want to add I have no animosity toward anyone for visiting PS. You guys can go where you want. I expect it. Even if you only get a small piece of valuable info from a source, then it is worth it sometimes.

~Chuck

Very nice post by you and I said everybody has a different motivation and reasoning--needs and wants-- for what they do. I don't know you and was just speculating. I am fairly new to the forum world and visited the other site first and then came here. I have lurked for while. I didn't see any bashing of this site over there and then found this holier than thou pat on the back thread. I saw the same people over there over here bashing that site. Just thought is was strange and irritating at the same time how it went on and on.

Its bad that your mods are not on the same wave length as you. They seem very hot tempered and ready to pounce on any desenting voice. Where is all that freedom of speech I here about in this place-- from this thread.
Anyway looks like the other forum owner is trying to make a living. You on the other hand have a different goal. Doesn't make one better than the other.
Maybe I will see the censureship you people keep talking about over there. I just haven't yet. Members who have used the product seem to be able to critique it and there are not nearly as many mods over there.
I like both sites and have learned alot. I guess if you are happy not making money then you are not wasting your time. But it is not a sin to want to make money now is it? I don't know if any forum makes money. I don't know the expense involved or the ad revenue.

[Alan]

Freedom of speech doesn't apply to a suspected poser being a jerk. Check out the rules,, the part about "anyone, anytime, for any reason", you are fitting nicely into that niche.

[wyldman]

Very nice post by you and I said everybody has a different motivation and reasoning--needs and wants-- for what they do. I don't know you and was just speculating. I am fairly new to the forum world and visited the other site first and then came here. I have lurked for while. I didn't see any bashing of this site over there and then found this holier than thou pat on the back thread. I saw the same people over there over here bashing that site. Just thought is was strange and irritating at the same time how it went on and on.

Its bad that your mods are not on the same wave length as you. They seem very hot tempered and ready to pounce on any desenting voice. Where is all that freedom of speech I here about in this place-- from this thread.
Anyway looks like the other forum owner is trying to make a living. You on the other hand have a different goal. Doesn't make one better than the other.
Maybe I will see the censureship you people keep talking about over there. I just haven't yet. Members who have used the product seem to be able to critique it and there are not nearly as many mods over there.
I like both sites and have learned alot. I guess if you are happy not making money then you are not wasting your time. But it is not a sin to want to make money now is it? I don't know if any forum makes money. I don't know the expense involved or the ad revenue.

If the thread irritated you,then move on,and don't post.You don't have to read it if you don't like it.I'm suprised your even able to read with your head so far up your arse.

The reason you don't see any bashing of this site over there is 1) because we have very few members who are unhappy with this site,and the way it is run,and 2)any mention of this site gets pulled immediately.

The reason most people praise Chuck,and this board,is because he does it because he wants to,because he loves snow,and the business,and knows a lot about it.Unlike some others with different motivations.

He is also a real person,who shows up at the GTG's,unlike the other owner who is afraid to show his face (I don't blame him after some of the stuff I have heard).

The mods around here will stick up for him,the board,and the members.We are pretty good at sniffing out a rat.We are ready to pounce when we smell something....and it sure does smell......maybe that comes from when your head has been. :D

Chris Smith summed it up pretty well.I suggested you remove your head from your arse for a wee moment and reread her post above.

No censorship here bud,you can have all the freedom of speech you like,as long as it falls within the rules.Keep knocking Chuck,the site,it's mods,or it's members,and you will quickly disappear.

[Mark Oomkes]

Very nice post by you and I said everybody has a different motivation and reasoning--needs and wants-- for what they do. I don't know you and was just speculating. I am fairly new to the forum world and visited the other site first and then came here. I have lurked for while. I didn't see any bashing of this site over there and then found this holier than thou pat on the back thread. I saw the same people over there over here bashing that site. Just thought is was strange and irritating at the same time how it went on and on.

Its bad that your mods are not on the same wave length as you. They seem very hot tempered and ready to pounce on any desenting voice. Where is all that freedom of speech I here about in this place-- from this thread.
Anyway looks like the other forum owner is trying to make a living. You on the other hand have a different goal. Doesn't make one better than the other.
Maybe I will see the censureship you people keep talking about over there. I just haven't yet. Members who have used the product seem to be able to critique it and there are not nearly as many mods over there.
I like both sites and have learned alot. I guess if you are happy not making money then you are not wasting your time. But it is not a sin to want to make money now is it? I don't know if any forum makes money. I don't know the expense involved or the ad revenue.

jimbob, I'm still trying to be nice here. One of the reasons you don't see LTS bashing at PS is because it is CENSORED. You can't see something that isn't there. :huh :huh Try to get this through your head, when we say Sean won't allow any mention of other plowing forums and it automatically blocks the name with asterisks whether it's a post or even a PM, YOU CAN'T SEE IT. Repetition is the key to learning, so that is why I said it twice. Another reason is like Chris said, there is nothing to bash over here. IF you haven't posted anything offensive, you aren't going to be censored.

Give this a try. Go over there and register. Start a new thread about other plowing forums that you frequent. See what happens. Do a search over here on the same topic and you will find a thread on that subject from a couple years ago. Just try it and see.

The reason the mods jumped all over you is because you can't seem to grasp the things that have been stated in this thread and other places on this forum. So when you totally disregard anything they or the members have stated and you say you have read the entire thread, you sound, look, act like a troll. Can't blame them for your ignorance or inability to comprehend what has been stated.

On the point of the differences of making one better than the other, that is not totally correct. I suppose I could retype what I replied to you earlier, but since you couldn't grasp that, it isn't worth my time. Humor me and just reread it. Especially the part about the quality of questions.

Hopefully you'll reread this and see enough daylight that you will understand why you have been 'jumped on'. I'm not holding my breath, though.

[PROCUT1]

Jimbob

Maybe you should start from page one and read the thread.

I didnt start this thread to bash PS or any other site.

This thread simply asked a question, Is there a liability for not censoring material on a forum.

Could SMG or Symbiot, sue Sean or PS if he allowed the members to broadcast their warnings to others not to take on work that they wont be paid for?

Im not even talking so much about the sponsors...I can ALMOST see trying to keep a handle on "sponsor bashing..."

Im mainly talking about the "national mgmt co's" and the threads associated with them.

SMG/SYMBOIT and none of the other nationals are sponsors of either one of these sites, so my main question is what does Sean or Chuck have to lose by leaving the threads on the board?

[pbeering]

Procut,

The board owners/moderators probably don't have any liability for your question because the board is the place where the speech takes place. B Bulletin boards are the electronic eqivalent of the street corner of old - lots of speech, some rising above the din, some not. The owner provides the corner.

The individual could conceivably face some exposure if the post were particularly libelous. There is a significant difference between a post that essentially says "So and So, has not paid me since the dawn of mankind, and you should think twice before you work for them." and one that says "So and So is a felonious crook who hasn't bathed since the dawn of mankind, and thusly stinks." (Unless of course you have proof, or are a writer for late night comedy) Such a post isn't likely to last long as there are moderators and rules on most boards, although the enforcement differs from place to place, just as the street-corner differs from place to place.

The truth is of course a defense. Those who find themselves as subjects of threads are free to disagree, argue, or post evidence to the contrary. The particular subject you allude to has plenty of evidence to support the warnings.

Further debate on that issue, or the range war that has been conducted above is a waste of time.

I suggest a padlock for this thread.

[Chuck Smith]

OK Jimbo, let me try this one more time. PROCUT asked a question. I thought it was best to give him a full explanation of why this site is run the way it is. I have not commented on how Sean runs his site, and I really don't care personally. I gave as much info, because I wanted everyone to know what I think a forum site should be, and why.

Typically, a Forum is an extension of a site about a given topic. The main site usually generates the revenue to support the forums. By design, forums are a place to share information. That is what we do here. Bigger forums with more traffic use more bandwidth, and cost more to run, and rely heavily on sponsors.

As we all know, volume doesn't always = quality. More volume = more expenses, and it becomes a vicious cycle. Someone has to pay the bills.

Now, you say you came here and have been lurking for a long time. (I am adding this for anyone that reads it at a later date). I don't feel I need to justify our actions here, but, lets look at some facts.

You joined months ago, and only now have you decided to jump in with both feet. Your first 3 posts just touted how great ******** is (notice you can see the name of the site, it is not censored here) and that is fine, you are entitled to your opinion. Now if you had a dozen or so posts in various threads, discussing snowplowing or equipment, we would not be so suspicious of who you are, or what your intentions are. Since all you have spoken out about is ********, and in an offhand way tried to put down this site, what should we think?

If you are not here just to promote ********, then you have thousands of threads and chances to jump in and discuss something else.

This thread has run it's course, and it is now closed.

Well said Peter.

~Chuck