When to do a de-icing visit?

[Rocket]

We are just finishing up this rain event (hopefully) in New England. It was a weird one for me as I never got called in to do one when I sub contracted. So, in essence it is my first one. I've posed the question before and still don't know the answer but when is the best time—and why—to apply salt, sand/salt, or treated salt?

Here is what I did. I checked the weather as it came in. 1/2"snow then it turned to rain, which iced everything up. I went out to spread Magic Salt on one lot and walkways. The first account we just spread the Magic Salt. The second we cleared the ice from the sidewalks and applied Magic Salt. The third, we did the same for the sidewalks but plowed the ice from the lot.

Looking at them an hour later we can see that the plowed lot is clear but if the temperature goes down tonight we'll have to apply something (I assume). The lot we applied just Magic Salt at first was very crunchy (a good thing I assume) and later, as vehicles started driving over, it became somewhat slushy. At some point the ice seemed to melt on the under side so that it was not attached to the pavement and is easy to kick off with your boot. It looks more messy than the plowed account.

Now, because the rain is still coming I assume we'll lose the affect of the Magic-Salt, no? So we'll have to reapply?

So, again, is this the correct way to apply this stuff? How would you have done this type of event? How should I bill it out (the plowed account although it was not a true plow. All I did was get the ice off in areas that it built up)?

Thanks

[BRL]

Sounds like you did good. The ultimate goal is safe access to the buildings for your clients & their visitors, so we salt when the lots are slippery. Ice storms, mix storms & storms with changes to or from rain are particularly difficult & there is no real answer that can be posted for you. I have dealt with ice storms where we did 3-5 heavier than normal salt applications & plowed & still had slippery conditions. Other times have been taken care of with 1 or 2 applications & no plowing. You have to monitor them & use your best judgement for the conditions at the time & the expected traffic for the site. Rain is a pain because it can wash away applications making them wasted & useless, so that makes for a tough judgement call sometimes. If you were able to keep the ice from adhering to the pavement then that is why I say you did a good job. Form that point you can then make a decision as to whether the ensuing mess needs to be pushed off, or if it can be burned down with further applications of salt. Make sure you record all the details you can about how & what & why you did what you did & what the results were so you can use that experience to help with similar future PIA storms. As far as billing for the plowing, if you had to plow to get the lot safe, then you charge for it. If the customer questions it you can explain that it might have taken 2 or 3 more complete salt applications to burn that ice down vs 1 plowing & 1 salt application (which hopefully adds up to equal or close to equal price for the client ;) ).

[Rocket]

Thanks

Inspecting later in the day gave me some more information I'll be able to use in the future. Tonight the roads are SLICK. The place I cleared with the plow is much better off. Only two or three slick spots from snow or ice from cars or left by me. Did a reapplication for the late crowd.

The place I did not plow was pretty slick. Probably as bad as the roads. What was previously melted underneith looks like it melted and later refroze. Possibly the rain washed away the Magic. I'll have to reapply there a.s.a.p.

[IHI]

This year when we got some freezing rain I went out and applied salt just as it started to sprinkle since it was to change into snow later. The rain diluted the salt and prevented the ice from adhereing to the concrete and after it turned to snow, the lots plow guy was able to keep it frsh concrete so that owrked okay.

This past storm was wet and heavy snow that turned to water when it hit the ground. I waited as long as I could till storm looked to be fizzling out then went out and applied a decent amount of salt since lot was turning to shear ice. came back 30 minutes later and the whole place was slush so I started plowing and moving all the slush out so it would not freeze into crunchy ruts that would tear up trucks/plows. Lot was then cler but still moist and later that night got a call to resalt since the surface moisture turned into a slick surface, reapplied a light layer of salt and it's been good since. Just found this year, you have to plow the old stuff out once it's metled/broekn down or else if you let it refreeze it will cause more headaches and more salting trips to remelt it so it's six to one, half dozen to another.

[wyldman]

A few tips to help the salt work more effectively.

Try to get it down as early as possible.It works better when it can easily form a brine,instead of having to cut through the ice first.It never hurts to be early,but it sucks to be late.

Salt the high spots heavy,and let gravity do the work.The brine will travel downhill and cover more area.This also prevents the high spots from washing away prematurely and refreezing.

Salt the entrances and laneways heavily,and let the cars carry it in.This will happen slowly,but will help keep things clear for a while as long as there is decent traffic.The car tires also create friction\heat,which gets the salt going a little faster.

[hlntoiz]

Rocket,

i am in the same boat as you. This is the first season I am not using sand in my applications. that storm pretty much sucked. It has been a learning experience. I did pretty much what you did. after I plowed one of my accounts I realized that slush is better than straight ice and went back and just plowed around making slush. Many of my buddies have asked me why i didn't use sand and I tell them the goal is to melt the ice asap, not cover it. Those storms are no good for anyone customer or contractor. It is important to keep records not just for your reference but god forbid the was a slip and fall. I know I landed on my ass that day and I had store owners tell me they saw people fall. But the key is that I did everything possible to make is safe as fast as I could. nothing else I could do.

I am still convinced that Iceban treated salt is much better than sand salt mix. Just have to remember the the best traction is wet asphalt not iced asphalt. Sand just acts like a ball bearing.

[digger242j]

Salt the entrances and laneways heavily,and let the cars carry it in.This will happen slowly,but will help keep things clear for a while as long as there is decent traffic.The car tires also create friction\heat,which gets the salt going a little faster.


I've always been of the opinion that you should salt the entrances and laneways "normally" (whatever that is), but salt parking spaces and areas that may be shaded by buildings or other landscape features, more heavily. I agree that the action of the traffic helps. That's the very reason why I'll go heavier where the traffic doesn't help--the salt has to do all the work itself. And, parked cars provide shade even in a wide open lot. And, the places where the cars are parked are where there is guarenteed to be people walking--thus it's more likely that that's where somebody will slip and fall.

Having the traffic lanes of a parking lot clear is a nice thing, but parking lot traffic travels at low speeds--it's rare that anyone loses control and skids off the parking lot. The DOTs salt highways so that latter day Dale Earnhardts in their SUVs can still get to work without killing themselves. We salt parking lots so Aunt Matilda can get in and out of her Oldsmobile and walk into the drugstore for her blood pressure medication without falling and breaking a hip.

[cat320]

Not to get off the subject but how does every ones customers feel when they get a bill for say 2-3 salting/sand/sand/saltmix for one storm? We all no that no one likes to pay for the safty they need so how many get greif from them say why did you come so many times it rained most of the day and we had hardly nothing for snow and ice?

[hlntoiz]

Cat320

Check out my new tread http://www.letstalksnow.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11062
For my response

[CGSI]

I agree HLNTOIZ
it is cheaper to pay me than their insurance carrierpayup

[salt shaker]

Rocket, I would agree with BRL, sounds like you did just fine. Also as Wyldman stated it does help to put the materiel down as early as possible. Next time, try putting it down just before the snow comes down, that way you are creating the brine solution that is needed to keep the snow or ice from bonding to the pavement, which will also melt the precip. as it falls and quite possibly would have stopped the 1/2" from accumulating. Every event is different, so try different techniques to find out what works in each situation. Documentation helps for later events and gives you some feed back for future reference. Keep up the good work.

[3311]

I agree HLNTOIZ
it is cheaper to pay me than their insurance carrierpayup

Now if all customers could understand this.